# Aw, heck: I bounced off "Flashman" by George MacDonald Fraser **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662 "2016-05-02T02:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/21 "2016-05-02T20:09:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Flashman is able to expose the truth, exactly _because_ he’s an unrepentant rotter with nothing to hide (from the reader). He has no interest in covering up the greed and abuses of the era, because he revels in being greedy and abusive. > > What made it work was the author’s meticulous knowledge and research of the period (reading the footnotes is mandatory … ). A very nice summary, Sir. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/22 "2016-05-02T20:17:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Flashy is cruel, bullying, mean-spirited. He beats one woman and attempts to rape her. He fixes a duel. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/23 "2016-05-02T20:19:27Z")
He gets his comeupance periodically. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/24 "2016-05-02T21:04:18Z")
What Malthus said. Learning about obscure colonial incidents is my favourite part of the Flashman series. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/25 "2016-05-03T01:18:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . . . Flashman was captured by the Russians during the Crimean War. ??? I read about 100 pages of the first novel, which takes him directly from school, to Cardigan’s regiment in England, after the Crimean War, and then to India. How could he possibly have been in the Crimean War if he only first met Cardigan after it? Did Fraser decide to play fast-and-loose with the character’s time-line? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/26 "2016-05-03T01:19:39Z")
> [@Claverhouse](#): > > Do tell. Er… Do you have something to add to the conversation? I mean, “Do tell?” Seriously? You either need to say a whole lot more here on this subject…or two words fewer. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/27 "2016-05-03T01:21:22Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Did Fraser decide to play fast-and-loose with the character’s time-line? Good Lord, no! It has been some time since I read the novels, as evidenced by my not knowing what is going on when, so I am unreliable, but others will soon tell you. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/28 "2016-05-03T01:27:31Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Er… Do you have something to add to the conversation? I mean, “Do tell?” Seriously? > > You either need to say a whole lot more here on this subject…or two words fewer. Your description is rather standard behavior for Flashy. Please don’t thread poop on our discussion. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/29 "2016-05-03T02:09:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? I read about 100 pages of the first novel, which takes him directly from school, to Cardigan’s regiment in England, after the Crimean War, and then to India. > > How could he possibly have been in the Crimean War if he only first met Cardigan after it? > > Did Fraser decide to play fast-and-loose with the character’s time-line? It’s been a while since I read the book but I think you’ve misremembered the story. Cardigan was a military leader before the Crimean War. He was serving in India in 1842 which is when Flashman first met him. Flashman would serve under Cardigan again, twelve years and three books later, during the Crimean War. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/30 "2016-05-03T02:21:39Z")
If you enjoy MacDonald’s writing, but are turned off by the character of Flashman, I very heartily recommend _The Pyrates_, by the same author. It’s more satirical and fantastical, taking as its premise that the swashbuckling films of Errol Flynn and Basil Rathbone were accurate historical depictions of the age of Piracy. The heroes are appropriately square-jawed and honorable, the pirates are lovably roguish, and the Spaniards are histrionically over-the-top evil. Fantastic fun. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/31 "2016-05-03T02:42:08Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It’s been a while since I read the book but I think you’ve misremembered the story. Cardigan was a military leader before the Crimean War. He was serving in India in 1842 which is when Flashman first met him. Flashman would serve under Cardigan again, twelve years and three books later, during the Crimean War. Yeah, Flashman purportedly lived from 1822 to 1915, which made him about 19 when he first embarked on his India service. The book plots seem to take his adventures up to about 1900. The framing narrative of all the novels is that he’s now living a very dignified upper-crust life as an aged nabob and revered hero, who also happens to be quite wealthy (from various hauls of ill-gotten plunder in the course of his escapades). His wife Elspeth is still living and apparently as dimwitted and affectionate as ever, while his only (legitimate) son is IIRC a dignitary of the Church of England. So he whiles away his declining years by writing candid accounts of all his adventures. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/32 "2016-05-03T02:46:07Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Your description is rather standard behavior for Flashy. > Please don’t thread poop on our discussion. > Thanks! “Do tell” was thread-pooping. Anyway, I started it, so it’s my discussion, so there, nyah. Anyway, seriously, Flashman acts like a total shit. I had been prepared for a light and witty novel, perhaps picaresque, but not for a woman-beater and rapist, and nor for much usage of “the n word.” All taken with all, I found the book too nasty to read. I had already read Fraser’s “Pyrates” which was light and witty, so I was expecting something more in that tone. Others have suggested I try again. I might. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/33 "2016-05-03T02:59:50Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Others have suggested I try again. I might. Don’t bother, Flashman is not Politically Correct. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![movingfinger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@movingfinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/movingfinger)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/34 "2016-05-03T04:52:13Z")
You might also try\*\* Black Ajax\*\*, also by Fraser, about bareknuckle boxing . A very brutal book about a very brutal sport, and IIRC Flashman’s father has a part in it. He is not quite as deplorable as his son, but he has his moments. Alkso lacking in political correctness, but a very good read, and well-researched. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/35 "2016-05-03T04:57:08Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Don’t bother, Flashman is not Politically Correct. > > 🙂 That isn’t really my primary discriminant or determiner for books. I’ve read a good shit-ton of non-PC literature. (I’m a Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs fan! Also a fan of Rudyard Kipling and Talbot Mundy.) (Actually, Talbot Mundy is fairly decent in his characterization of members of other cultures and faiths.) Anyway, I really love the concept: taking a minor character from Tom Brown’s School Days and running amok with him. That’s pure genius! (In one of my unpublished – and perhaps unpublishable – stories, I describe some people sailing around on a refurbished and refitted original old sailing ship from the 1860s, on a modern-times voyage from Brunei to Singapore. The ship is the Matilda Briggs. Sherlock Holmes fans will remember her as the ship associated with the Giant Rat of Sumatra. I love to play this kind of game, and I adore other writers who play it also.) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/36 "2016-05-03T05:07:59Z")
If you need to root for the protagonist there really is no hope for enjoying Flashman. If you can’t enjoy the story and enjoy hating him then the book isn’t for you. Personally I very much disliked how the character was “softened” in the later books. It just seemed so dishonestly done. He didn’t become nicer/braver, the author just said brave things were done for cowardly reasons. That’s how I recall anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/37 "2016-05-03T05:40:37Z")
I also disliked how much the character was softened in the last few novels. If in the first novel he was just too vile, by the last ones he almost became warm and cuddly (even if still cynical). He was at his best in the middle novels. For me, the best aspect of the novels is to have a cynical observer present at some of the more esoteric corners of nineteenth century history, like being at the court of Queen Ranavalona of Madagascar or accompanying Rajah Brooke or Chinese Gordon in their exploits. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/38 "2016-05-03T06:01:10Z")
The two specific things that make me want to give Fraser more chances are: Pyrates…because I really loved that book! And…his literary skill. The bloke really knows how to spin a yarn. He’s extremely adept at narrative description, dialogue, all the story-telling skills. I have been reading the Richard Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell, and enjoying them quite a lot. The storytelling is very crisp, although I find the stories just a little too “plotted.” In every one of these books, Sharpe just barely turns the tide, from defeat to victory, by being in just the right place at the most desperate moment – oh, and he also kills his nemesis in the middle of the battle. There is a great element of “contrivance” in the books, as everything is engineered to micrometric tolerances to come out the way it should. (This was my grievance with Jim Butcher’s fantasy novel, “The Furies of Caldera,” first of the Codex Alera series. The book was HEAVILY micro-scripted, arranged so that everything would come together at the end, all the plot-lines leading to one place and time. That just isn’t believable to me. It reveals too much the hand of the author. I prefer stories that have more plausibility, more “rough-edged reality” to them, where, yeah, the hero wins, but not right exactly on the razor-blade of losing, and not in such an artificially arranged climax. It makes me feel like I can see the strings in the marionette work.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/39 "2016-05-03T06:02:37Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That isn’t really my primary discriminant or determiner for books. I’ve read a good shit-ton of non-PC literature. (I’m a Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs fan! Also a fan of Rudyard Kipling and Talbot Mundy.) You should probably avoid Sapper McNeile though. ---
**Author:** ![Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/46a35a/32.png) [@Walker\_in\_Eternity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walker_in_Eternity)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/40 "2016-05-03T08:18:06Z")
> [@glee](#): > > I agree that Flashman is morally repugnant. > However he is a man of his times (society has improved a LOT since then.) > > Once I accepted he was the storyteller, not the hero, I could enjoy the fine writing and the well-researched historical footnotes. Agreed on both counts, Flashman is a terrible person, but the footnotes are incredible interesting. Also I did find the books very funny. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662.md?page=3)