# Aw, heck: I bounced off "Flashman" by George MacDonald Fraser **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 2, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662 "2016-05-02T02:51:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/81 "2016-05-07T23:53:12Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Another thing I’ll say in defence of the Flashman series: The historical research is _meticulous_; as someone who loves the Victorian Era, it’s a very accurate depiction and when there are artistic liberties taken, they are still justifiable and work well in context - the footnotes alone are excellent reading for anyone wanting to learn more about the era. Flashy does show some discretion when Victoria Regina asks him how a diamond he recovered was worn, and he does not tell her that the ruler danced naked with it stuck (somehow) in her navel. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/82 "2016-05-08T00:02:41Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Another thing I’ll say in defence of the Flashman series: The historical research is _meticulous_; as someone who loves the Victorian Era, it’s a very accurate depiction and when there are artistic liberties taken, they are still justifiable and work well in context - the footnotes alone are excellent reading for anyone wanting to learn more about the era. Not a defence I’m overly wildly convinced by. Having read and enjoyed the novels as a teenager, I systematically reread them all again a few years back, about thirty years after I’d first read them. The hurdle of the rape in the first novel does seem to me an issue for the whole series. From my understanding, Fraser did pretty much acknowledge that that had been a mistake. It does jar with the tone of the other novels. Overall, I felt the series peaked very early. It starts out with that sense of parodying specific Victorian novels, but that peters out very quickly. As I’ve probably argued on the Dope before, the brilliance of _Royal Flash_ is that Fraser explicitly fixes all the fundamental plot holes that Hope ought to have spotted in _The Prisoner of Zenda_. On the “footnotes” - and aren’t they usually formatted as endnotes? - I similarly think that Fraser got lazy. The early novels have that touch of Gibbonian irony to the notes, that the later ones don’t. Fraser’s notes are always interesting, but they did just over time become a vanilla listing of his (usually ultimately obvious) sources. Often clumsily reiterating the point he’d probably gracefully made in the main text. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/83 "2016-05-08T08:31:47Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > I loved _The Pyrates_, but _The Reavers_ was pretty poor; it’s the only book of his I’ve never finished. [_The Hollywood History of the World_](http://www.amazon.com/HOLLYWOOD-HISTORY-George-MacDonald-Fraser/dp/0449904385), on the other hand, is a work of sheer genius. > [@bonzer](#): > > On the “footnotes” - and aren’t they usually formatted as endnotes? - I similarly think that Fraser got lazy. The early novels have that touch of Gibbonian irony to the notes, that the later ones don’t. Fraser’s notes are always interesting, but they did just over time become a vanilla listing of his (usually ultimately obvious) sources. Often clumsily reiterating the point he’d probably gracefully made in the main text. Without wanting to seem cruel; I wonder whether some of the decline in quality seen in Fraser’s later output, vis-a-vis earlier, can be ascribed to mental slowing-down on the author’s part owing to advancing age – he died at 82 (_The Reavers_ was, I think, his last work). There’s some good stuff in the last-but-one Flashman novel, _Flashman and the Angel of the Lord_ (John Brown); but I found it somewhat weak in that much of it is rather blatant “recycling” of _Flash for Freedom_, only taking place ten years later. I did feel that with the very last “Flashman” – _Flashman On The March_ (the campaign against Theodore of Abyssinia), much of Fraser’s old spark was recovered. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/84 "2016-05-08T08:58:14Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > On the “footnotes” - and aren’t they usually formatted as endnotes? - I similarly think that Fraser got lazy. The early novels have that touch of Gibbonian irony to the notes, that the later ones don’t. Fraser’s notes are always interesting, but they did just over time become a vanilla listing of his (usually ultimately obvious) sources. Often clumsily reiterating the point he’d probably gracefully made in the main text. No idea; I read for pleasure, not to dissect the text for a university thesis. (Been there, done that, glad to be able to read for enjoyment again.) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/85 "2016-05-08T12:22:27Z")
I’m just sorry we’ll never know the true story behind Flashman being decorated with the highest honors by both sides in the US Civil War. He made repeated references to that, but Fraser died before that book could come out. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/86 "2016-05-08T13:02:24Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m just sorry we’ll never know the true story behind Flashman being decorated with the highest honors by both sides in the US Civil War. He made repeated references to that, but Fraser died before that book could come out. One theory I’ve heard is that Fraser never intended to write a book in that era so all his Civil War references are the equivalent of the noodle incident. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/87 "2016-05-08T16:46:26Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > The Discworld only exists as a background for puns. The world doesn’t have a real “existence” of its own. It lacks plausibility. It’s a delight; I’ve only read three of the books, but I loved 'em. But it was a little like Alice in Wonderland: the world couldn’t possibly exist, except as a contrivance to point up the jokes. > . You only think that as you have only read three of the books. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/88 "2016-05-08T17:21:33Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m just sorry we’ll never know the true story behind Flashman being decorated with the highest honors by both sides in the US Civil War. He made repeated references to that, but Fraser died before that book could come out. Yes. His service with the Union forces in 1862 and Confederate forces in 1863 would have allowed him to be on the losing side in some of the worst disasters for each, including Pickett’s Charge. We also only got a brief look at his service in the Zulu War at Isandhlwana and Rorke’s Drift. Both would have offered exceptional opportunities for cowardice disguised as bravery. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One theory I’ve heard is that Fraser never intended to write a book in that era so all his Civil War references are the equivalent of the noodle incident. I seem to recall reading that he said he wasn’t all that interested in the US Civil War. I think Flashman’s service with John Brown substituted for that. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/89 "2016-05-08T18:43:44Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m just sorry we’ll never know the true story behind Flashman being decorated with the highest honors by both sides in the US Civil War. He made repeated references to that, but Fraser died before that book could come out. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > One theory I’ve heard is that Fraser never intended to write a book in that era so all his Civil War references are the equivalent of the noodle incident. > [@Colibri](#): > > Yes. His service with the Union forces in 1862 and Confederate forces in 1863 would have allowed him to be on the losing side in some of the worst disasters for each, including Pickett’s Charge. > > I seem to recall reading that he said he wasn’t all that interested in the US Civil War. I think Flashman’s service with John Brown substituted for that. Per a supposed quote from a 2002 interview by Fraser (no cites to give, I fear – just “picked up from the Net”): Fraser said, "to me, the American Civil War is a colossal bore. It was a rotten war, it’s been done to death and I’m not terribly interested in it. An American wrote to me urging me to write it, saying it had to be the high point of Flashman’s career. I wrote back saying: ‘Son, it’s a foreign sideshow. The Crimea, the Indian Mutiny, they were the important things in Flashman’s life. Your civil war? He was so disinterested that he fought on both sides.’ " Despite my admiration of most of Fraser’s work: I feel that in the above, he was behaving like a dick – especially toward his American correspondent, but also toward his fans in general, who had been fascinated over the years by his frequently-dropped “in passing” references in the novels, to Flashman’s ACW doings. Picture generally got is that Flashy finds the USA a largely horrible, but nonetheless interesting, place… perhaps by 2002 Fraser, in his late 70s, had come to feel entitled to behave like an obnoxious old curmudgeon. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/90 "2016-05-08T21:20:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You only think that as you have only read three of the books. ??? It’s as if I’d said, “I’ve only read three James Bond novels, but they seemed awfully sexist,” and you responded, “You only think that as you have only read three of the books.” As a rebuttal, that doesn’t make any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/91 "2016-05-08T21:23:03Z")
I’m still confused by how Flashman could have been in the Crimean War, when the first book in the series takes place after the Crimean War…and there is no gap in his history into which a prequel could be shoehorned. Did Fraser just quietly blow off the timeline, and write the prequel anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/92 "2016-05-08T21:30:20Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Overall, I felt the series peaked very early. Disagree: I thought the series maintained quality pretty consistently, remarkably so as it was published from 1969-2005. The one I found a bit of a retread was _Flashman and the Angel of the Lord_, as someone mentioned upthread. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/93 "2016-05-08T21:35:35Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m still confused by how Flashman could have been in the Crimean War, when the first book in the series takes place after the Crimean War…and there is no gap in his history into which a prequel could be shoehorned. > > Did Fraser just quietly blow off the timeline, and write the prequel anyway? Afghan War = _Flashman_, takes place 1839–42. Crimean War = _Flashman at the Charge_, takes place 1854–55. The first Afghan War takes place before the Crimean War. > **[First Anglo-Afghan War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War)** > > The First Anglo-Afghan War (Pashto: ده انګريز افغان اولني جګړه) was fought between the British Empire and the Emirate of Kabul from 1838 to 1842. The British initially successfully invaded the country taking sides in a succession dispute between emir Dost Mohammad Khan (Barakzai) and former King Shah Shujah (Durrani), whom they reinstalled upon occupying Kabul in August 1839. The main British Indian force occupied Kabul and endured harsh winters. The force and its camp followers were almost com... > **[Crimean War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War)** > > Total: 165,363–223,000 dead45,770 combat deaths119,593 non-combat deaths > The Crimean War\[d\] was fought from October 1853 to February 1856 between the Russian Empire and an ultimately victorious alliance of the Ottoman Empire, France, the United Kingdom, and Sardinia-Piedmont. > Geopolitical causes of the war included the decline of the Ottoman Empire (the "Eastern Question"), the expansion of Russia in the preceding Russo-Turkish Wars, and the British and French preference to preserve the Ottom... ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/94 "2016-05-08T21:40:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? It’s as if I’d said, “I’ve only read three James Bond novels, but they seemed awfully sexist,” and you responded, “You only think that as you have only read three of the books.” As a rebuttal, that doesn’t make any sense. Bad analogy. If you had said “Bond seems to use a Beretta 418 a lot” it would have been more correct. And just as wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/95 "2016-05-08T22:05:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? It’s as if I’d said, “I’ve only read three James Bond novels, but they seemed awfully sexist,” and you responded, “You only think that as you have only read three of the books.” As a rebuttal, that doesn’t make any sense. The first three books (esp 1 & 2) were written as broad fantasy parodies. Late, pTerry got into serious\* character and world development. The tenor and theme of the books changed. - still some humor, but less and less. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/96 "2016-05-08T22:37:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Afghan War = _Flashman_, takes place 1839–42. > > Crimean War = _Flashman at the Charge_, takes place 1854–55. > > The first Afghan War takes place before the Crimean War. > > [First Anglo-Afghan War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Anglo-Afghan_War) > > [Crimean War - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_War) ??? But the first book refers to Lord Cardigan and the Charge of the Light Brigade. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/97 "2016-05-08T23:05:18Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > I did feel that with the very last “Flashman” – _Flashman On The March_ (the campaign against Theodore of Abyssinia), much of Fraser’s old spark was recovered. Having proposed that Fraser declined, I must admit that _Flashman on the March_ was good. Though possibly helped by the fact that my re-reading of the novels was deliberately followed in each case by seeking out more factual accounts and in this instance I thought that both Henty’s contemporary _The March to Magdala_ and Marsden’s recent _The Barefoot Emperor_ were well worth reading in themselves, even given the minor disagreements with Fraser. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/98 "2016-05-08T23:07:01Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? But the first book refers to Lord Cardigan and the Charge of the Light Brigade. It refers to Cardigan and to the Light Dragoons. Cardigan took command of the Light Dragoons in 1836, before First Afghan War. Flashman joined the Dragoons in the late 1830s when he was about 18, when he first met Cardigan. The books were supposedly written by Flashman when he was an old man. Flashman also served with Cardigan later in the Crimea, so perhaps he mixes in some mention of the Charge of the Light Brigade in the first novel. But the novel itself mainly takes place during the Afghan War. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2016, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/99 "2016-05-08T23:19:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > ??? But the first book refers to Lord Cardigan and the Charge of the Light Brigade. To amplify what **Colibri** suggests and without checking the specific reference, surely there’s the point that **all** of the Flashman Papers are written well after the events described. The Flashy playing with the grandkids on the lawn in between penning his memoirs knows all about what will ultimately happen with Lord Cardigan before he put pen to paper on what became that first invaluable packet of documents. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2016, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662/100 "2016-05-09T00:29:15Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > . . . The books were supposedly written by Flashman when he was an old man. Flashman also served with Cardigan later in the Crimea, so perhaps he mixes in some mention of the Charge of the Light Brigade in the first novel. But the novel itself mainly takes place during the Afghan War. That’s almost certainly what happened, then: I mistook “Old Flashy’s” reminiscences for “Young Flashy’s.” Never mind. Simple mistake. Nothing to see here… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-heck-i-bounced-off-flashman-by-george-macdonald-fraser/753662.md?page=6)