# Aw, the heck with it ... another LOTR question -- this time, Elves. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132 "2003-09-12T04:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/1 "2003-09-12T04:10:50Z")
So the Elves are immortal. Yay for them. Does that mean an Elf can’t be killed? What happens if you shoot an elf with an arrow? What if an Ent smushes one? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/2 "2003-09-12T04:23:09Z")
Elves can be killed (like in battle), or can waste away from grief and stuff. But, they don’t grow old and die, nor do they get diseases. Not truly immortal. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/3 "2003-09-12T04:34:06Z")
If an Elf dies from violence, their spirit goes to Valinor in the west, to wait in the halls of Mandos, which are overseen by NÀmo (who is also better known as Mandos, though that name properly only refers to his halls), the Vala most identified with the afterlife. After awhile, they will be released back to a bodily existence with their kinsmen in the west, provided that they are not FËanor, who doesn’t get to leave until the ending of Arda. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/4 "2003-09-12T22:56:24Z")
Yeah, where are all the elf kids? Do elves just spring into existance or do they grow up from an elfling? Surely they must “grow old”; they simply don’t feel or show any signs of aging after a certain point in their lives, a la _Highlander_. Do they even celebrate birthdays? How many spankings would Elrond get? ---
**Author:** ![Wumpus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8c91f0/32.png) [@Wumpus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wumpus)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/5 "2003-09-12T23:02:28Z")
Well, that depends on how much Elrond is into it … ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/6 "2003-09-12T23:53:08Z")
This link gives some information on elvish children and birthdays: [What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex](http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/7 "2003-09-13T00:08:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Some Guy_ > …to wait in the halls of Mandos… MANDOS: Halls of Fate [sub]Sorry.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/8 "2003-09-13T01:02:02Z")
MST3King The Lord of the Rings?! :eek: Actually, that would be fun ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/9 "2003-09-13T01:07:34Z")
MST3King The Lord of the Rings?! :eek: Actually, that would be fun ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/10 "2003-09-13T01:14:40Z")
**some guy** has the gist of it. An elf’s lifespan is that of the world itself. If their body is slain, or they waste away from grief, their spirits go to Mandos, where they may be issued a new body later, or possibly be reborn in elf-child form (JRRT was still working on and refining these concepts up until his death). But they’re stuck in Valinor regardless, until the End. Keep in mind that elves are not as frail physically as men are. They have enourmous recuperative powers (at least the certainly did in the Elder days, when they were at their zenith) and are not susceptible to disease, and need much less sleep, food, etc. **Tyrrell** posts an excellent link regarding elf-lust and reproduction. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/11 "2003-09-13T01:21:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Horseflesh \* > \*\*Yeah, where are all the elf kids? Do elves just spring into existance or do they grow up from an elfling? > > Surely they must “grow old”; they simply don’t feel or show any signs of aging after a certain point in their lives, a la _Highlander_. > > Do they even celebrate birthdays? How many spankings would Elrond get? \*\* Before the Sun illuminated the sky over Middle Earth, some Elves were awakened into the world. Full grown, though they were but new in the world. They loved the darkness and grew to love the world into which they awoke. Some of those original created (as opposed to born) Elves were still in Middle Earth during the Third Age, being millennia old and yet never aged. Now, Elves did have children. But, once they reached the age of maturity, they did not “age” any further (as into decrepitude like Humans did). Elves and Humans could mate, and their children had the option of being Elven or Human. Thus, the Half-Elven. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/12 "2003-09-13T01:24:19Z")
BTW, the oldest elf we encounter in LOTR is Cirdan the shipwright. He was a first-generation elf, who awoke in Cuivienen, rather than being born in what became the traditional way for the Children of Iluvatar. Next oldest would be Galadriel, most likely. She was 3rd generation. She’s at least 7000 years old, and could be as much as 15 to 20,00 years old. Glorfindel could be older, but it was never made clear. Elrond is a relative latecomer, born circa 525 first age. He’s just over 6,500 years old. ---
**Author:** ![Horseflesh](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horseflesh/32/7502_2.png) [@Horseflesh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horseflesh)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/13 "2003-09-13T04:29:44Z")
So did elves that were born hold the same favor with the Valar and Iluvatar that the original elves did? Did they have the same recuperative (among other) powers that their elders did? Do they come of age more slowly, as Hobbits do (compared to Men)? Re: offspring of Elves and Humans: how exactly do they “choose” one race or the other? Is this akin to when Arwen offers to give up her Elvish immortality in order to hang around with Aragorn? And wasn’t Strider himself part elf (on his mother’s side I was told)? How does the world of Men view him as the rightful king if he isn’t full-blooded Human? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/14 "2003-09-13T04:53:16Z")
I’ve never quite caught on to how the half elven or half human choose their destiny. Are they somehow cognizant enough at birth? Is it chosen by proxy? Is the choice left up to them later in life? The children of the Elves who “woke up” in Middle Earth reached both the hieghts and the lows of Elven achievement and fame/infamy. Take Feanor, for instance. He made the Silmarils, which held the light of the Two Trees, and yet he swore an oath that almost severed the Elves from the Valar and caused the shedding of blood of brothers. The coming of age Qs I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/15 "2003-09-13T04:55:37Z")
Aragorn is “part elf” on his father’s side (well, in all probability on his mother’s side, too, but just because of typical inbreeding of nobility), if you go back about 40 generations. Or more. I spose I could count up the lineages, but I’m lazy. The lineage goes back to Elros, first king of Numinor, Elrond’s brother, who chose mortality at the end of the First Age. As to choosing, the rules are not entirely clear. However, there are just a tiny handful of cases. Really, just Elrond and Elros. My own view is that Arwen’s choice is not akin to that of Elrond or Elros, but rather akin to that of Luthien. ---
**Author:** ![racinchikki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@racinchikki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/racinchikki)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/16 "2003-09-13T04:59:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tyrrell McAllister \* > \*\*This link gives some information on elvish children and birthdays: [What Tolkien Officially Said About Elf Sex](http://www.ansereg.com/what_tolkien_officially_said_abo.htm) \*\* From the link: _Ever since the movie of the book Fellowship of the Ring came out, there seem to be two popular ideas about Elves’ sex lives. Either they are radiantly asexual, or they are all screwing each other madly, along with any dwarves, hobbits, and men who happen along. Whichever you prefer is usually based on how attractive you think Orlando Bloom is._ BWA HA HA ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/17 "2003-09-13T13:04:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > \*\*… > > The children of the Elves who “woke up” in Middle Earth reached both the hieghts and the lows of Elven achievement and fame/infamy. Take Feanor, for instance… > \*\* My sources indicate Feanor wasn’t one of the ones who woke up. He was the son of Finwe and Miriel. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/18 "2003-09-13T13:10:50Z")
I didn’t say he woke up. I indicated he was born. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/19 "2003-09-13T14:14:41Z")
My bad. I misread. No coffee yet. So was Finwe one of the ones who “woke up”? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2003, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/20 "2003-09-13T15:32:15Z")
Finwë was one of the first generation of elves who awoke at Cuivienen, yes. So were Elwë, Olwë, Ingwë, and Cirdan. Arwen’s choice is the same as that of her father, and her uncle, Elros. The love and pain driving that choice is the same as Luthien’s. IMHO. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132.md?page=2)