# Aw, the heck with it ... another LOTR question -- this time, Elves. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132 "2003-09-12T04:10:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/41 "2003-09-15T23:25:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*And **Qadgop** , we don’t see any other examples of elves named after other elves, \*\* There’s a debatable exception to this - in the original Fall of Gondolin tale (in _BoLT 2_), there’s an Elf named Legolas - and he’s pretty clearly NOT the Legolas son of Thranduil we see in LotR. Of course, Legolas of Gondolin doesn’t make it into the published version of the Silmarillion, so he might not count… > [@](#): > > \*\*I _think_, though I may be mistaken, that all of Yavanna’s fair creations slept in anticipation of light, and didn’t awaken until the Sun came out. \*\* I’d think at least SOME plants must have been growing under the starlight in Middle Earth before the sun rose. Otherwise, what were the Elves eating before the sun rose? And where did they get their oxygen? (It seems unlikely that the plant life growing just in Aman could produce all the oxygen required to sustain the animal life of Endor as well as Aman.) ---
**Author:** ![Arien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Arien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arien)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/42 "2003-09-15T23:29:07Z")
> [@](#): > > this is going to make no sense if Arien’s name isn’t the reference I think it is… No, you got it. However, I am sadly not really a divine being with lots of cool divine being type powers. Sorry if I disappointed you. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/43 "2003-09-15T23:39:16Z")
**Chronos** , you forget Gelmir of Nargothrond, who was slain in front of his brother, Gwindor before the Battle of Nirnaeth Arnoiediad in FA 472, vs. Gelmir companion of Arminas, who ran errands for Ulmo in FA 495, and was one of Earendil’s companions. Also Haldir of Nargothrond, son of Orodreth, who was hung by Orcs and died in FA 488 vs. Haldir of Lothlorien in the 3rd age. Also Rumil of Tirion, in the days of the trees, who first devised the written Quenya letters vs. Rumil brother of Haldir and Orophin of Lothlorien. Also Legolas the jewelmaker of Gondolin in the FA, vs. Legolas the Sindar prince we all know and love. I’m not saying that we have two separate Glorfindels. I’m just saying JRRT was less than conclusive in saying whether or not Glorfindel returned to middle-earth. Frankly, I think Glorfindel did return. As for Starlight, JRRT himself wrote that he’d erred in leaving the world in darkness for the early days, and wanted to re-write things so that light was in the entire world from near the beginning. (Sorry, Arien!) As for Arwen’s choice, if you read my cite above, we have **JRRT himself** stating: \* Arwen chose mortality, Arwen died like a mortal and left the world\*. No extant writing I am aware of indiated he wished to redo this aspect of the story. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/44 "2003-09-16T00:46:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arien \* > \*\*No, you got it. However, I am sadly not really a divine being with lots of cool divine being type powers. Sorry if I disappointed you. \*\* Well, you can make all the disclaimes you want, and we’ll pretend to believe you, but the evidence is there. Look at the username you picked, and the fact that you live in the Sunshine State! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/45 "2003-09-16T04:54:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorsnak \* > Anyways, it seems unjust to me. If the children of Elrond Halfelven are granted a choice between passing to the West or remaining in Middle-earth and becoming mortal, why are the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur bound by their father’s choice? You see it that way because you are mortal, of the fate of Men, who call our fate the “burden”. Among the Valar, it is known as the “gift”. The Elves live for as long as does the world, but when the world ends (and it is a “known fact” that it will eventually end) they will end, completely, utterly, extinguished with the world of which they are a part. Men, on the other hand, “pass beyond”, with the hint that they will go on past the end of Arda. Thus, Elros’s descendents inherit this great gift, or at least that’s the theory. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/46 "2003-09-16T05:39:04Z")
Ah, but it’s also said that all of the Children of Illuvatar will sing together after the end of Arda. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tyrrell_mcallister/32/16772_2.png) [@Tyrrell\_McAllister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrrell_McAllister)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/47 "2003-09-26T19:37:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by **Qadgop the Mercotan** \* > If their body is slain, or they waste away from grief, their spirits go to Mandos, where they may be issued a new body later, or possibly be reborn in elf-child form (JRRT was still working on and refining these concepts up until his death). But they’re stuck in Valinor regardless, until the End. I have recently embarked on the long journey from mere _have read LOTR and the Silmarillian a half dozen times_ geekdom to _have read entirely through HOMES and know not only all established “facts” about ME, but also the chronological evolution of the facts over Tolkien’s lifetime_ geekdom. In pursuit of this, I have come across some quotes in _Morgoth’s Ring_ that pertain to where reincarnated elves end up: > [@](#): > > _From p.234:_ > [According to the Valar] … the Dead will be reborn in such place and time that the meeting and recognition of the sundered [spouses] shall surely come to pass, and there shall be no hindrance to their marriage. > > Upon this the Eldar comment: ‘By this is meant that the Reborn Spouse will not appear among the close kindred of the Living Spouse, and in fact **the Reborn appear as a rule amongst their own former kin** , unless in the chances of Arda things have so changed that the meeting of the sundered would thus be unlikely. **The Reborn that were unwedded always return to their own kin.** ’… By ‘close kin’ for this purpose was meant members of one ‘house’, especially sisters and brothers. (emphasis mine) I think that this passage makes it pretty unambiguous that if, say, Legolas had been killed in LOTR, and he were reborn while Thranduil’s people were still inhabiting Greenwood, then Legolas would have been reborn in Middle Earth. Of course, this passage appeared among Tolkien’s unpublished work; it may be contradicted by other writings of which I’m not aware. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132/48 "2003-09-26T19:55:56Z")
Your journey to the geek side is now complete! Welcome!! JRRT did vacillate between the “reborn among their own kin” idea and the “eh, just slap 'em into a new adult body and turn 'em loose” idea, the latter I always took to mean having them walk out of Mandos bodily. But certainly the concept is open to speculation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aw-the-heck-with-it-another-lotr-question-this-time-elves/201132.md?page=2)