Aw, the heck with it ... another LOTR question -- this time, Elves.

[Gorsnak]

*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan *
Arwen’s choice is the same as that of her father, and her uncle, Elros. The love and pain driving that choice is the same as Luthien’s. IMHO.

A review of the Appendices confirms that you are correct. Elrond’s children get a choice - though not, as I read it, quite the same choice as that given Elrond and Elros. “But to the children of Elrond a choice was also appointed: to pass with him from the circles of the world; or if they remained, to become mortal and die in Middle-earth.” This reads to me as if the children of Elrond can only sail to the West with their father, and not otherwise. But perhaps I’m reading to much into “to pass with him.”

Anyways, it seems unjust to me. If the children of Elrond Halfelven are granted a choice between passing to the West or remaining in Middle-earth and becoming mortal, why are the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur bound by their father’s choice?

[Tyrrell_McAllister]

Qadgop, are there any references confirming that Círdan awoke at Cuiviénen? I only recall him being mentioned after the Eldar had reached Beleriand. I’ve always thought it most likely that he was one of the original Quendi, but do we have any proof that he wasn’t born later at Cuiviénen or born during the westward march?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

I can’t quote you chapter and page, tyrrell, but somewhere in my perusings of HOMES I-XII I seem to clearly recall this assertion, that he was Cuivienen-born. On-line sources agree, but Encyclopedia of Arda, as usual, is without proper footnotes. Annals of Arda does better, but gives 4 volumes to rummage thru to find the exact cite.

Here’s a recap of Cirdan from Annals of Arda, a quite nice encyclopedia, with better footnoting than “encyclopedia of arda”
http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/papers/Cirdan.htm

In the History of Middle Earth, Part 12, we discover that among J.R.R. Tolkien’s Last Writings is a short manuscript titled “Círdan”. Here Tolkien states explicitly, that Círdan “seeing further and deeper into the future than anyone else in Middle Earth (…) must include even Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn.”
Tolkien subsequently tells how Círdan remained behind as the leader of those Teleri who sought longest for Elwë when he was lost (with Melian in Doriath). “Thus he forfeited the fulfillment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed realm and find again there Olwë and his own nearest kin. Alas, he did not reach the shores until nearly all the teleri of Olwë’s following had departed.”

[Nocturne]

Anyways, it seems unjust to me. If the children of Elrond Halfelven are granted a choice between passing to the West or remaining in Middle-earth and becoming mortal, why are the children of Elros Tar-Minyatur bound by their father’s choice?

This is a wild guess, but here goes:

Elrond Half-eleven married Celebrian, the child of Galadriel and Celeborn. Celebrian was fully elven, meaning that genetically their children Arwen, Elladan, and Elrohir were 3/4s elven.

Elros married a mortal, therefore their children were only 1/4 elven, not truly half at all.

[AncientHumanoid]

Choice of the Half-Elven
Tom Bombadil
Came from the links provided by Qadgop the Mercotan. Took a bit of reading, and I still don’t see 100% proof. But, it makes some sense of it all

[artemis]

*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan *
**Finwë was one of the first generation of elves who awoke at Cuivienen, yes. So were Elwë, Olwë, Ingwë, and Cirdan.
**

Elwe and Olwe are brothers, which implies they weren’t first generation (how could first-generation Elves have siblings when they weren’t begotten and don’t have parents?). Finwe probably isn’t first generation either, as he had a choice of spouses. Both Indis and Miriel were attracted to him; he married Miriel, and Indis pined (well, until Miriel died after Feanor’s birth and Finwe finally married her). But first generation Elves apparently didn’t have a choice of spouse; the counting tale in HoME says the 144 original Elves who woke at Cuivienen were already paired up, with each Elf awakening next to his/her destined mate.

[AncientHumanoid]

Contradiction?
Olwë awoke at Cuiviénen

The first Elves awoke by Cuiviénen, the Water of Awakening in the far east of Middle-earth, long Ages before the Rising of the Sun or Moon. Unlike Men, the Elves were not subject to illness or death, and at the time of the Lord of the Rings, there were still at least two Elves in Aman who had awoken by Cuiviénen in the first days; Ingwë, Lord of the Vanyar, and Olwë, brother of King Elu Thingol.

and…

Younger brother of Elwë Singollo

A lord of the Teleri, the younger brother of Elu Thingol. When Thingol was lost in Beleriand, Olwë took the lordship of those of his people who wished to continue to Aman, and led them there. He rules the Teleri at Alqualondë on the shores of the Blessed Realm.

Just for kicks: Ingwë

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

Being a brother to someone doesn’t preclude being one of the first-awakened at Cuivienen. After all, Melkor and Manwë were brothers in the mind of Eru. Doubtless Olwë was brother in the mind of Eru to Elwë, but awoke after him.

[AncientHumanoid]

Works for me, QtM.
Lake Cuiviénen

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

Artemis, the trouble with so much of JRRT’s writings is that they spanned 1917-1973, and were internally contradictory. If “ol’ Tollers” had just had another 150 years of leisure to continue his writings, he’d have eventually ironed out all that stuff. Then we’d know the real truth of Galadriel’s departure for Middle-Earth (did she have permission, did Celeborn leave Valinor with her), where Orcs came from (corrupted elves, or corrupted men), and why the hell Balin took the title of “Lord of Dark Pit”.

Although, it is more internally consistant than the bible!

NoClueBoy, thanks for that soothing image!

[artemis]

*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan *
Artemis, the trouble with so much of JRRT’s writings is that they spanned 1917-1973, and were internally contradictory.

Oh, I’m well aware of that - it’s part of what makes reading his legenderium so much fun, after all. It reads like “real” history, because all the details aren’t neatly tied up for the reader. Arda history, like our own, is messy!

Right now I’m currently hotly debating the true nature of Orcs with another fan on a Tolkien fanfic writer’s message list - she’s thowing out HoME quotes to prove they’re souless beasts (abeit thinking ones), I’m throwing out quotes from exactly the same essay (Myths Transformed, in Morgoth’s Ring) which completely contradict her passages.

Hey, at least it beats discussing Balrog wings!

**

If “ol’ Tollers” had just had another 150 years of leisure to continue his writings, he’d have eventually ironed out all that stuff. Then we’d know the real truth of Galadriel’s departure for Middle-Earth (did she have permission, did Celeborn leave Valinor with her), where Orcs came from (corrupted elves, or corrupted men), and why the hell Balin took the title of “Lord of Dark Pit”.**

Dream on! If he’d had another 150 years to write, Tolkien would have used them doing such things as devising yet more possible genealogies for Gil-Galad, revising the physical nature of First Age Arda completely (thus making it incompatible with the Alkalabeth story, which he would then also have to rewrite), starting work on yet more lays, ballads, and fully fleshed out versions of Silmarillion stories only to abandon them all in mid-sentence after he’d completed 2/3s of the work on them, and providing scholars with a complete lexicon of Nandoran Elvish. I honestly think that in a way he really didn’t want to finish the Silmarillion, because to finish it would mean stopping work on it, and he was too much in love with the whole subcreative process to want to do that. It was destined to be a work-in-progress forever.

(As for Balin - I always figured he just didn’t know any Sindarin, and could be excused on the grounds of ignorance. Narvi, on the other hand… You’d think he’d have known Celebrimbor well enough to comprehend just what name his Noldoran friend was drawing on his wonderful doors!)

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

artemis, you’re a poster after my own heart! I’d love to read how JRRT was planning on changing the origins of the sun and the moon. I always found it a bit hard to accept that during the years of the trees, all the elves in middle-earth got by with just starlight! It’s damn dark out with just the stars out!

[Chronos]

Hey, at least it beats discussing Balrog wings!

I know spome folks will insist on honey mustard sauce, but these are Balrog wings we’re talking about here! It’s got to be spicy barbeque, if you ask me. I think I’ve got a recipe around here somewhere…

The reason you don’t see many elf kids is that they take only a few years to grow up (not more than a hundred or so), but after that, they can live for tens of thousands of years. So statistically, there aren’t very many of them. But if you want to see elf children, there are plenty of them in the framing story for The Book of Lost Tales.

As for birthday spankings, as I recall, elves usually reckon time in longer units of (I believe) 144 years. And they don’t celebrate birthdays anyway, but conception days, but the elven gestation period is just about a year, anyway, so it works out to about the same thing.

Much though I fear to disagree the great Mercotan, I’m not convinced that reborn elves are confined to Valinor. The only case we know of is Glorfindel, who was in Middle Earth both before and after he died. (For you non-obsessed fans, he was the elf who helped chase the Wringwraiths at the Fords. In his previous life, he went mano a maio with a Balrog, and died taking it with him.) And I’m also not too sure about Arwen’s choice. She says that she chooses a mortal life, but is that really her choice to make? Recall that she does not die of old age (she’s still in her prime when Aragorn dies, and mortals don’t get much longer lived than Aragorn), but rather of grief, one of the two causes of death to which Elves are subject. I think that only Elrond, Elros, Earendil, and Elwing were given the Choice.

While it’s technically correct to say that humans and elves can interbreed (it’s happened at least three times), those were probably the exceptions rather than the rule. There are other accounts of humans and elves marrying, but (with the possible exception of the house of Dol Amroth’s supposed Elvish ancestry) those unions didn’t result in any children.

And re Aragorn’s elven blood: Aragorn and Arwen are first cousins, 43 times removed. Elrond’s brother Elros was the first of the kings of Numenor, the land of Aragorn’s ancestors. Strictly speaking, Elrond and Elros weren’t half-and-half, either: They (and all their decendants, like Aragorn) also have some divine blood on their mother’s side, from Melian the Maia, who married the elf Thingol.

[artemis]

*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan *
**I always found it a bit hard to accept that during the years of the trees, all the elves in middle-earth got by with just starlight! It’s damn dark out with just the stars out! **

The heck with the Elves - I want to know how the plants stayed alive with no light but starlight!

And think of the headache those Elves in Middle Earth must have had when the sun rose for the first time, and all that light hit their super-dark-adapted eyes… Ouch!

Of course, the problem with having the sun and moon exist from the beginning of Arda is that it makes the Two Trees pretty irrelevant, which is why I think Tolkien never made much progress with that particular revision of his mythos. Why would everyone in Amam be so upset at the death of a couple of supercharged Christmas trees, after all?

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

Chronos, I did mention the peculiar case of Glorfindel in an earlier post in some Tolkien thread or other. Once again, JRRT is unclear as to whether this Glorfindel is the same one as the one who fought the Balrog (and died) back in Ondolindë. T’would be nice if an exception was made which let old Glory boy back to middle-earth.

As for Arwen, she clearly had the choice of the half-elven. This is re-iterated in a lot of places, including ROTK, where mention is made of Elrond’s sorrow in their parting, which would last “beyond the end of the world”. It’s toward the end of ROTK, but before the appendices, where Elrond goes off alone with Arwen to say goodbye to her.

Also, from “letters by JRRT”:

“Elrond chose to be among the Elves. His children- with a renewed Elvish strain, since their mother was Celebrian dtr. of Galadriel - have to make their choices. Arwen is not a re-incarnation' of Luthien (that in the view of this mythical history would be impossible, since Luthien has died like a mortal and left the world of time) but a descendant very like her in looks, character, and fate. When she weds Aragorn (whose love-story elsewhere recounted is not here central and only occasionally referred to) she makes the choice of Luthien’, so the grief at her parting from Elrond is specially poignant. Elrond passes Over Sea. The end of his sons, Elladan and Elrohir, is not told; they delay their choice, and remain for a while.”[LETTER #153]

[Arien]

I always thought it was strange that the only marriages between the Eldar and the Edain were between Elven women and mortal men. I guess we just can’t compete :). Although I did read in one of the History of Middle Earth books that Aegnor, brother of Finrod and Galadriel, loved a mortal woman named Andreth, but they never married because he knew he would die in one of those battles that I can’t remember the name of.

[Shade]

From the linked site, without comment:

Although Tolkien never said that the elves DID have hot gay sex, he also never said that they DIDN’T. And I know what I make of that.

[smiling_bandit]

where Orcs came from (corrupted elves, or corrupted men),

He was quite clear they were corrupted elves. The Uruks had a bit of corrupted human into the mix, too.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

*Originally posted by smiling bandit *
**He was quite clear they were corrupted elves. The Uruks had a bit of corrupted human into the mix, too. **

Yes, he was quite clear in his earlier writings. In his later writings, he said he wished to revise this.

[Chronos]

QuothArien

I always thought it was strange that the only marriages between the Eldar and the Edain were between Elven women and mortal men. I guess we just can’t compete

Whaddaya mean, you Maiar ladies can’t compete? Thingol married a Maia, didn’t he? I’m sure that with your sunny disposition, you could have snared a mortal man if you chose.

[sub]this is going to make no sense if Arien’s name isn’t the reference I think it is…[/sub]

And Qadgop, we don’t see any other examples of elves named after other elves, Glorfindel of Rivendell is described as a “powerful Elf-lord” who looks glorious “as he is on the other side”, we know that slain elves can be re-born, and we know of no other cases of reborn elves to refute it. Put it all together, and it seems logical to suppose that Glorfindel of Rivendell is the same guy as Glorfindel of Gondolin. As for Arwen’s choice, all we really have to support the notion that she did really have the choice is the beliefs of various characters. Elrond is wise, but he’s not omniscient, and he may have been wrong on this count.

And I’ve always had the impression that starlight used to be a lot brighter than it is now, and Elves have exceedingly good night vision anyway. I think, though I may be mistaken, that all of Yavanna’s fair creations slept in anticipation of light, and didn’t awaken until the Sun came out.