# Axis of evil #2. It is time for Iran now. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 28, 2004, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971 "2004-08-28T17:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/41 "2004-08-29T22:21:15Z")
How many times must we fall for the same old tricks? ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/42 "2004-08-29T22:21:53Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > You have just seen America invade and dismantle the governments of two of your neighbors for very slight reasons. The dismantling of the Taliban regime was done for “very slight reasons”? ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/43 "2004-08-29T23:00:27Z")
> [@milroyj](#): > > The dismantling of the Taliban regime was done for “very slight reasons”? Of course it was. In the first case Afganistan ,Taliban government wanted to extradite Osama BL to USA if only White House could provide any tangible proof that he was responsible for 9/11.Proof I mean proof not some hardly audible video of him speaking suprisingly about what happened in New York on 9/11. I call this extremly slight reason for invading sovereign nation.(Taliban government was not my cup of tea but they were not terrorists as we are being told) Second case ,invasion of Iraq: no fucking comment! ---
**Author:** ![milroyj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@milroyj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/milroyj)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/44 "2004-08-29T23:09:06Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > Of course it was. > In the first case Afganistan ,Taliban government wanted to extradite Osama BL to USA if only White House could provide any tangible proof that he was responsible for 9/11.Proof I mean proof not some hardly audible video of him speaking suprisingly about what happened in New York on 9/11. I call this extremly slight reason for invading sovereign nation.(Taliban government was not my cup of tea but they were not terrorists as we are being told) They were given multiple opportunities to hand over Mullah Omar and OBL, but they refused. Hence, they were taken out. Oh well. As for the Taliban not being terrorists themselves, I’m quite sure that the women, gays (who had stone walls toppled on them to kill them) and the children (who couldn’t fly a kite or listen to music) would beg to differ. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/45 "2004-08-29T23:24:06Z")
**milroyj** , I’m not going to argue with your analysis of the reason for the destruction of the Taliban. However, I think, though the Taliban could be described as “motherfuckers”, “bastards”, or “assholes”, or “motherfucking bastard assholes” if you’re feeling flamboyant, they weren’t necessarily “terrorists”. Ideology aside, their resemblance in tactics to the Northern Alliance, which of course is our ally, is striking. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/46 "2004-08-30T00:18:13Z")
> [@](#): > > The USA right now to occupies a sovereign nation where it already killed thousands and thousands of innocent people and you dare to talke about “evil” in other nations, while you even choose to use the same disgusting rethoric the US goverment spouts? The U.S.A might of been flawed in its invasion and its occupying tactics, but in no way is it evil like so many of those therocracies and dictatorships in the ME. Seems to me like Alde here is clutching at straws. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/47 "2004-08-30T01:29:16Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > But I don’t think that the political will exists for invading Iran. Agreed. Neither the will nor the ability. We squandered them both in Iraq…now if we really need them we are fucked. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/48 "2004-08-30T02:07:41Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > You are Iran. You have thousands of American troops sitting at your borders. You have just seen\*\* America invade and dismantle the governments of two of your neighbors\*\* for very slight reasons. Not only that , but it was done very quickly and efficiently with a minimum of combat troops. > [@](#): > > You have been publically declared an enemy, and put on a short list of which one has already fallen. And this time its not just rethoric , the clock is ticking on Iran and North Korea > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t you consider trying to get a nuclear weapon as soon as possible As to that , its probable that the devices they currently have , have been bought off the shelf from china. Its the home grown resupply that they want , to prove that they are a nuclear power in all aspects. > [@](#): > > After all, Iraq didn’t and they lost their country.\*\* North Korea- undeniably one of the more evil evils on the axis\*\*- did and while we guardedly condemn them, we havn’t made even the slightest moves against them. In fact, we’ve publically talked about how we have to take a different (presumably not-invading) approuch with them Heck we probably could live with em , if kim was at least sane, or appearing to be sane. Eventually they would go the way all dictatorships go , just with nukes we can’t afford to ignore em. > [@](#): > > . I have no doubts that Iran is rapidly persueing the nuke. I think we’d all do the same thing given the situation. A nuclear Iran may be scary, but to the\*\* Muslim Middle East a conventional America is also pretty frightening.\*\* Umm, I would have to disagree with that , they (middle east , rest of the world) have lived with the idea of a conventional America for the past ten years since Desert Storm, the writing was on the wall then , but they looked and seen grafitti. Personally , I dont think that the mullahs will have to worry about an invasion from without , but they really should look to their enemies within > [@](#): > > Wouldn’t you also be mighty tempted to make sure American troops stay engaged in Iraq? As long as we fight in Iraq, we will not have enough troops to invade anyone else. It’s a good argument for everyone in the area to try to keep the fighting going on there. That only works if there is a finite supply of troops , and if an invasion is actually in the works , rather than more subtle methods. Declan ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/49 "2004-08-30T07:30:39Z")
> [@](#): > > That only works if there is a finite supply of troops Erm, there isn’t?? I thought you guys didn’t allow cloning :eek: ---
**Author:** ![pervert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbe5ce/32.png) [@pervert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pervert)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/50 "2004-08-30T07:38:12Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > Ideology aside, their resemblance in tactics to the Northern Alliance, which of course is our ally, is striking. But ideology cannot be put asside. It is the difference between good and evil. Doesn’t anyone else watch those old Star Trek episodes? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/51 "2004-08-30T11:40:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Seems to me like Alde here is clutching at straws. Actually, in this particular case, he is not. For once he has put aside the broad-brush overgeneralized “America is evil” schtick in which he too frequently engages (as a mirror to the “Islam is evil” drivel that several other posters use), and has put forth a coherent discussion on the topic. I do not agree with all of his points (_e.g._ unlike Iraq, the Afghanistan invasion was not based on flimsy excuses), but he is hardly clutching at straws to hold up a mirror to U.S. “we need to protect the world” rhetoric and demonstrate where we often present ourselves as the force against whom we claim to be defending. “Nice little country you’ve got here. It’d be a shame if anything happened to it.” I think the U.S. has acted legitimately in the interests of the world, as well as in its own self-interest on several occasions. Certainly, however, if I were a non-aligned country, today, (which is pretty easy to be under ol’ Unilateral Bush), I would be looking to acquire WoMD and arranging for mutual defense treaties with other nations. Based on some of the rhetoric I’ve seen among the more chauvinistic Yanks, I would say that if France, Gerrmany, Russia, and China could form a defense association, a _lot_ of countries would sign up. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/52 "2004-08-30T15:06:52Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > For once he has put aside the broad-brush overgeneralized “America is evil” schtick in which he too frequently engages I read this as: “For once I can read his posts for what they are = not ciriticizing particularly US citizens or USA in general, but rightfully condemning their current government, its policies and those who blindly adore them”. Nice to discover that for once someone actually can make that distintcion. > [@](#): > > I do not agree with all of his points (_e.g._ unlike Iraq, the Afghanistan invasion was not based on flimsy excuses), I did not even mention Afghanistan, which is a whole other discussion. But so sorry for those who believe otherwise: That whole invasion and flattening it back to stone age could have been avoided. Yet it was in the US interest to grab the pretext giving them the occasion to invade and install their puppet. The question is how long it is going to last because prospects for that aren’t very pinky coloured overthere. If the current US government would have kept its focus on Afghanistan instead of giving in to their lunatical idea that they could have it all at once and at the same time, we would see an other picture then we see now. If, of course, they would have wanted to actually learn something about the country they invaded instead of thinking that waving with money would do the job for them. (Encouraging tribal disputes being solved by selling your enemy to the US army and see him exit to Guatanamo for nothing else then being an enemy in tribal or family disputes isn’t solving much on a global scale, is it?) > [@](#): > > I think the U.S. has acted legitimately in the interests of the world, Care to give me some examples? I can tell you that the mingling of the West in general and the latest US actions specifically is not particularly beneficial for myself and my region in general. The ME has never been “served” as much as it has been blatantly exploited/used/disputed over by and for Western and later - and in addition to that - US strategical and economic gain and interest. In particular the illigimate criminal actions of the current US government brings me personally much more worries about safety and stability then there was ever reason to worry about this before. (I don’t think I need to make a drawing of the flocks that the US currently drives towards the Terrorist Indoctrination Schools?) > [@](#): > > as well as in its own self-interest on several occasions. The USA never acted but in its own self-interest. It takes a naieve dreamer to believe otherwise. No nation ever undertakes anything but with the aim of self interest. > [@](#): > > Based on some of the rhetoric I’ve seen among the more chauvinistic Yanks, I would say that if France, Gerrmany, Russia, and China could form a defense association, a _lot_ of countries would sign up. I would say that - with severe hesitation about China at the moment - such ideas do circulate. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2004, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/53 "2004-08-30T23:04:50Z")
Americans do tend to be chauvinistic, self-righteous, even jingoistic, even _as deploring that in other nations._ And most of us who dream of worldwide democratic revolution have little comprehension of what bloody revolutions actually do. I believe Iran wouldn’t be in the boat it’s in if not for the perpetual US hostility toward it & its people. I _know_ that most Americans have no comprehension of what & who Iranians actually are. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/54 "2004-08-31T20:15:44Z")
Why is everyone so convinced that an invasion is approaching? I have seen no movement whatsoever toward that end. There has been a lot of talk about Iran’s nuclear weapons program (which, by the way Iran emphatically denies exists), but I have seen nothing coming from the Bush administration that smacks of preparing the nation for war. I have seen no maneuvering to get the international community to back any kind of war plan. I have seen no attempt to amass forces to invade Iran. I am no fan of Bush. I am certainly not an apologist for him, but I simply see nothing of the sort of run-up to Iraq going on now. Also remember that no one in Iran tried to kill his father. And such an invasion would take an effort that would dwarf the Iraqi adventure. Iran is about the size of Alaska and is home to around 65 million people. The resistance would be much stronger than what we are seeing in Iraq. Thanks to the ill-advised invasion of Iraq, the U.S. is in a weakened political position to deal with the proliferation of nuclear weapons to Iran. The international community is moving very slowly on this matter, though considerable evidence of a weapons program has been discovered by the same U.N. teams that found nothing in Iraq. There IS a strong possibility of a strike against Iran by Israel similar to the Israeli strike against Iraq in 1981 (which almost certainly ended up saving Tehran from being destroyed in the Iran-Iraq war). And who could blame them? Iran had made it crystal-clear that they do not accept the existence of Israel and they use their surrogate army, Hezbollah, to attack Israel as often as possible. they also poor funds into Hamas with he goal of eliminating the “zionist state.” Iran knew they this when they embarked on their nuke program, they built facilities deep underground and surrounded them with anti-aircraft weapons. An Israeli raid against these sites would be costly and would certainly incur a counter-strike from Iran against Israel and possibly the U.S. Iran has said they will hold the U.S. responsible for any action taken by Israel. In the logic of the Iranian leaders (and many people outside of Iran) Israel is a puppet state of the U.S. While at the same time the U.S. is beholden to it’s Jewish population and the Jews do whatever Israel wants. Got that? In the event that Iran does strike American forces in say Iraq following an Israeli strike I still think there would be no invasion of Iran. There would be a strong U.S. military reaction to be sure, but I would not expect an invasion unless the Iranian strike was absolutely massive. Even an Israeli strike is not a foregone conclusion. Perhaps the threat of such a strike will eventually prod the international community into action. Maybe Iran’s support for Chechen separatists will finally antagonize the Russians into halting the their assistance to Iran’s nuke program. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I believe Iran wouldn’t be in the boat it’s in if not for the perpetual US hostility toward it & its people. Perpetual hostility? Yes, the U.S. has not supported Iran since the hostage crises and Bush named Iran in his “axis of evil” speech. There was an overture to Iran when Clinton was President with the loosening of some sanctions against Iran, but that was met with a furious response from Iran’s figure-head President Khatami. The Iranian government on the other hand, still refers to the U.S. as “shetuneh bozorg” or “great satan” and “margh bar Amrica” or “death to America” is still a common refrain. Iran’s parliament opened it’s most recent session with a prayer for the destruction of Americans. Iran opened a museum in the former U.S. embassy featuring models of Uncle Sam wearing the Star of David (in case you forgot that Americans = Jews = zionists) that museum goers could assault with hammers. Iran’s supreme leader, the Ayatollah Khamenei has stated that the 9/11 attacks were carried out by the CIA and their zionist agents. > [@foolsguinea](#): > > I know that most Americans have no comprehension of what & who Iranians actually are. Now I’m no foolsguinea, but I think I know Iranians pretty well. And I think many of them are sick of this shit. To some people who are living in pro-American dictatorships like Saudi Arabia, an anti-American, Islamic dictatorship like Iran may hold some appeal, but to people who have been forced to live with it for 25 years it’s worn very thin. When my wife was a girl she was forced to raise her fist in the air and chant “death to America” everyday before school started. How many years of that can you take before you’re sick of it? An Iraninan teacher I know was forced to tell her students that the U.S. caused an earthquake in Iran. How many times can you be fed that kind of crap before you grow to doubt it? By the way, that anti-American museum I mentioned earlier was shut down last year for lack of interest. There are still plenty of profoundly anti-American types in Iran, but they grow fewer and fewer though their power remains absolute. Riots and demonstrations (not condemning the U.S.) have grown more common in Iran. Protesters have had to curtail the obvious anti-government attitude somewhat after the horrific crack down on protests at Tehran University in which several students were hacked to death in the dorms by the Iranian “Basiji” or morality police. Nevertheless, protests continue. Watch for September 8. Iran’s soccer team plays Jordan and if Iran loses they will almost certainly be eliminated from the Wold Cup a full two years in advance. This type of event has served as pretext for demonstrations in the past. The Iranian government claims all these protests are organized by the CIA. ---
**Author:** ![nonpolar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3da27b/32.png) [@nonpolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nonpolar)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/55 "2004-08-31T20:57:54Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Americans do tend to be chauvinistic, self-righteous, even jingoistic, even _as deploring that in other nations._ And most of us who dream of worldwide democratic revolution have little comprehension of what bloody revolutions actually do. > > I believe Iran wouldn’t be in the boat it’s in if not for the perpetual US hostility toward it & its people. I _know_ that most Americans have no comprehension of what & who Iranians actually are. Absolutelly right!Education is the key! Regular Americans are nice people, but they are not educated enough and are feed BS from the day they were born.One thing US masses know how to do is waving their little flags when their Lords order them to do so . Back to the Iran ; any sensible country will try to aquire nuclear weapons, if you are being called member of axis of evil, your neighbour is invaded and demonized on daily basis then no wonder they want to have nukes as soon as possible. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/56 "2004-08-31T22:39:38Z")
OK, Captain, do the people of Iran want American troops to invade their country to free them? What does your wife think? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Captain\_Lance\_Murdoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Lance_Murdoch)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/57 "2004-09-01T12:43:18Z")
For those who missed it in my first post… > [@Captain Lance Murdoch](#): > > The resistance would be much stronger than what we are seeing in Iraq. By that I mean there would be almost no support for a U.S. Invasion in Iran. I also think there’s almost no chance there will be a U.S. invasion of Iran. ---
**Author:** ![DonMartin88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DonMartin88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonMartin88)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/58 "2004-09-01T14:55:59Z")
> [@nonpolar](#): > > It is other way around. Israel with hundreds of nukes is the biggest threat to the stability of M.East.Iran posessing nuclear weapons might bring some balance of power vis -a-vis unpredictable Israel. > Look at N.Korea , they have nuclear bombs and this way are respected by the USA. Very simple right? good point ---
**Author:** ![DonMartin88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DonMartin88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonMartin88)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/59 "2004-09-01T14:59:00Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Americans do tend to be chauvinistic, self-righteous, even jingoistic, even _as deploring that in other nations._ And most of us who dream of worldwide democratic revolution have little comprehension of what bloody revolutions actually do. > . americans do not tend to be, they are - from head to toe ---
**Author:** ![DonMartin88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/73ab20/32.png) [@DonMartin88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonMartin88)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971/60 "2004-09-01T19:09:41Z")
this article was a bit interesting > [@](#): > > \*\*Iranian Defense Minister Warns US and Israel of Preemptive Strikes \*\* > Source: Radio Farda Newsroom > Defense minister went beyond commanders of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps by saying that the Islamic government could launch preventive strikes at US and Israeli installations in the region in order to prevent being struck. He said preventive strikes were not a monopoly of the US. IRGC commanders had threatend to strike Israel’s nuclear reactor in response to Israel’s possible strike on Bushehr nuclear power plant. > > August 19, 2004 - Launching preemptive strikes in reaction to perceived threats was not a monopoly of the US, defense minister Ali Shamkhani said on Wednesday, raising the level of threat one notch above that of deputy commander of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps Mohammad-Baqer Zolqadr, who said on Monday that the Islamic government may target Israel’s nuclear reactor at Dimona in response to a possible Israeli strike on the Bushehr nuclear plant. > > “We will not sit (with our arms folded) to wait for what others will do to us," Shamkhani said in an interview aired on the Arabic news channel al-Jazeera on Wednesday. [http://www.payvand.com/news/04/aug/1187.html](http://www.payvand.com/news/04/aug/1187.html) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/axis-of-evil-2-it-is-time-for-iran-now/261971.md?page=4)