Axis of evil #2. It is time for Iran now.

We don’t have sufficient troops or sufficient reason. (Not that that would stop Bush…) But he would have an awfully hard time convincing the people that we need to go into yet another country for a war.

The younger Iranians actually show some fondness for the US. We may need them as allies.

And I wouldn’t say that we are on good terms with North Korean. We got a little saucey with them this week and they called our beloved President “a political imbecile” and “human trash.”

Wait. Or was that North Carolina?

I’m not sure why it seems ludicrous to you. Nuclear weapons main purpose is detterence, and this detterence can work even against vastly more powerful ennemies, because there aren’t a lot of countries who could afford to have say a dozen of their major cities turned into radioactive dust.
So, from the point of point of view of a country that could be targetted by the USA (and from what I read, the Iranian militaries don’t like much having american soldiers on two of their borders…you could think it’s far-fetched to imagine an american attack against Iran, but walk for a moment in their shoes. And besides, being paranoid is part of the militaries job), it makes perfect sense to build nuclear weapons to protect themselves against a possible attack by the US.
Could you explain why it seems nonsentical to you? If you were the ruler of Iran, wouldn’t you consider this option very seriously? What alternative plan would you propose in case of attack by a superpower who has publically declared its hostility to your country/regime and has troops on your borders?

Israel’s armed forces are organized as a defensive force. They do not have the military capability to ‘conquer’ Iraq. They don’t have the logistical support. And they could never do it anyway, because if there’s one country that Iranians of all stripes would fight to the death to prevent being occupied by, it’s Israel.

But Israel may very well launch strikes at Iran aimed at stopping nuclear/missile production. And for good reason. Leaders in the Iranian government have publically debated the merits of a first-strike nuclear attack on Israel. Their logic - Israel is very small, and the Arab and Iranian world is very large. So there would be massive loss of life on both sides, but in the end Israel would be gone, and the Arabs and Iranians would still be around.

I’m not sure what should be done to stop Iran from getting the Bomb, but I think drastic measures are called for, along the lines of strategic bombing of Iranian nuclear facilities. A nuclear Iran is a terrifying prospect.

Let’s not be ridiculous. Israel has enough nukes to flatten most of Iran, and the ability to deliver them. Iran knows this. The clerical leadership of Iran may be a tad fanatical, but they demonstrably don’t have a death wish. There is about as much chance of Iran launching nukes at Israel as there is of China launching nukes at the US - virtually none.

Moreover, I believe the Iranians don’t much identify with the Arab world. They aren’t Arabs, and they’re not Sunni. Sure, they identify more with the Arab world than with the West, or the Pacific Rim, or what have you, but I think there’s no chance they’d see the survival of Saudi Arabia as anything like compensation for being turned into a parking lot.

Of course, I completely agree that the IDF may very well launch copies of the Osiraq strike, and I wouldn’t really blame them any more than I would if the Japanese launched attacks on NK missile facilities. There are some things one doesn’t like rolling the dice on, no matter how much they’re loaded in your favour.

That is exactly my piont ,you are 100% correct.

Iran’s Chalabi ?
Manucher Ghorbanifar says he talked secretly with Pentagon officials about plans for regime change in Iran

Dec. 22 issue - What was international man of mystery Manucher Ghorbanifar up to when he met with top Pentagon experts on Iran? In a NEWSWEEK interview in Paris last month, Ghorbanifar, a former Iranian spy who helped launch the Iran-contra affair, says one of the things he discussed with Defense officials Harold Rhode and Larry Franklin at meetings in Rome in December 2001 (and in Paris last June with only Rhode) was regime change in Iran. Ghorbanifar says there are Iranians capable of organizing a peaceful revolution against the ruling theocracy. He says his contacts know where Saddam Hussein hid $340 million in cash. With American help, he says, this money could be retrieved and half used to overthrow the ayatollahs. (The other half would be turned over to the United States.) Ghorbanifar says he told his U.S. interlocutors that ousting the mullahs would be a breakthrough in the war on terror because top Qaeda leaders, including Osama bin Laden, are in Iran. (“You won’t be surprised if you find that Saddam Hussein is on one of the Iranian islands.”) Among other intel Ghorbanifar says he and associates gave the Pentagon: a warning that terrorists in Iraq would attack hotels. He also says he had advance info about Iranian nukes and a terrorist plot in Canada. Financial gain was never his objective, he says: “We wanted to give them the money, not to take the money.”[/FONT]
But I don’t think that the political will exists for invading Iran.

It seems ludicrous to me because I cannot concieve of the leaders of NK or Iran innocently sitting around thinking to themselves, “nah, I don’t need nuclear weapons” until the U.S. invades Iraq, sending them into a tizzy of WMD production.

You give good reasons for them to want nukes, period. But I think that it’s ridiculous to think that, as even sven seemed to imply, the invasion of Iraq was the only, or even the primary, impetus.

It is other way around. Israel with hundreds of nukes is the biggest threat to the stability of M.East.Iran posessing nuclear weapons might bring some balance of power vis -a-vis unpredictable Israel.
Look at N.Korea , they have nuclear bombs and this way are respected by the USA. Very simple right?
PS.did you hear the latest news,American fighter jets are flying illegally over Iranian air space.Are they trying to provoke Iran?Of course they are!!

What I love so much in threads like this is the unfolding of the utterly hypocritical line of reasoning. You have no idea how utterly disgusting these threads and posts are. How typical they bring across the mindset of a certain part of the population in the USA. And no, this is not the only US message board one can see that display of ideas that the uS owns the world and can go invading and killing as if it is nothing. You even seem to be completely indoctrinated by the idea that the somehow has that right.

You reason on the level of a child playing with tin soliders. “Hey, shouldn’t we go violating once again the territory of a sovereign nation?”
You seem to have vivid dreams of CNN coverage giving you live pictures of what looks like a display of innocent fireworks.
You even don’t make a little effort to display a very little thought about having any idea that this is all but innocent firework. That this display on youer TV screens of murdering weaponry exploding is in REAL LIFE killing people while you are watching.
You have not even the slightest connection with reality that when you are chatting about invading yet an other nation as if it is something utterly abstract, you are indeed chatting casually about the murdering of thousands and thousands of people. You seem to have even no idea that already thousands and thousands died in Iraq (and still counting upwards daily).

As long as they are not US citizens, it seems that is doesn’t matter one bit. The apalling hypocrisy escapes you completely. So called still thinking about people who died in the WTC at the same time you can write casually about the idea of your nation once again invading a sovereign nation. Killing thousands and thousands of people. Of course somewhere nicely far away so that you don’t even have to look at burned babys, children with their brains blown out, pregnant women cut in half, elderly people burned alive.
It is in your mind obviously a completely normal scenario you think your nation should be able - or pursue - to put in practice.

May I suggest you all to start running to enlist yourself in the US Hero Army begging to take part of the butchery actions?
Go volunteer for killing people if that is what your mind is full of that you even have can’t resist to chat casually about it on message boards. Make your dreams come true.

Are you still here?

Draft?

Only if you want a large segment of the population to turn against you at the next election.

You seem often to be outraged by posts that don’t actually exist. Is anyone seriously advocating here what you are ranting against?

I think you take message boards a little too seriously, we’re only citizens speculating about what our government may do.

I think that Israel would be about the last country anyone would want to invade. They get bigger every time they fight a war, and they’re just sane enough to enjoy American/British/Russian support while crazy enough to respond to a conventional attack with a thermonuclear bomb.

As for Iran, I don’t think that we really need to do anything right now - the mullahs’ hold over the government is tight but fragile. If they overstep the bounds of what their people will tolerate (which is not to be confused with what Americans would tolerate), they could lose in either an election or a revolution.

Keep in mind that Sam used the word ‘seems’:

There’s been been a steady trickle of stories claiming Iranian meddling in Iraq, but not yet a smoking gun. There’s also plenty of evidence that Iraqi politicians are using Iran as a convenient political football. It’s too good a card for someone not to play it.

Does George Bush know?

Elections?

May I remind you that that there are concepts like good and evil in the world? And a country which publicly and proudly announces its desire to murder every citizen of the Great Satan and the Little Satan (Israel), is evil. Americans have no desire to hurt citizens of evil countries–only to prevent their murderous leaders from developing WMD which they have shown themselves williing to use.

It was logical to believe the evidence that Saddam had Weapons of mass destruction. So it was morally legitimate to destroy the infrastructure supporting those weapons. No babies were targetted deliberately.Unlike the suicide bombers who proudly blow up babies, and are strongly supported by Iran’s leaders.

Aldebran–I hate war more than you do.But I know evil when I see it.A “Sovereign nation” is not a legitimate entity just because it is sovereign. If it publicly declares its intention to murder babies in New York or Tel Aviv, than it is part of the axis of evil.

But calm down— you dont have to worry about anybody attacking Iran. The political climate won’t support it, and in any case the US army is short on manpower. A quickie bombing of the Iranian nuclear facilities, (like Israel did to Iraq in 1984, and thereby saved the planet from a true madman)
also won’t happen, because the US public won’t support it, and Congress won’t authorize it it.

So the window is closing.By next year, Iran will have their nukes out on display, and there won’t be anything anybody can do about it.

But feel free to go on believing that moslem dictatorships pledged to jihad are equal in stature to western democracies.

Seriously though…

You are Iran. You have thousands of American troops sitting at your borders. You have just seen America invade and dismantle the governments of two of your neighbors for very slight reasons. You have been publically delared an enemy, and put on a short list of which one has already fallen.

Wouldn’t you consider trying to get a nuclear weapon as soon as possible? After all, Iraq didn’t and they lost their country. North Korea- undeniably one of the more evil evils on the axis- did and while we guardedly condemn them, we havn’t made even the slightest moves against them. In fact, we’ve publically talked about how we have to take a different (presumably not-invading) approuch with them. I have no doubts that Iran is rapidly persueing the nuke. I think we’d all do the same thing given the situation. A nuclear Iran may be scary, but to the Muslim Middle East a conventional America is also pretty frightening.

Wouldn’t you also be mighty tempted to make sure American troops stay engaged in Iraq? As long as we fight in Iraq, we will not have enough troops to invade anyone else. It’s a good argument for everyone in the area to try to keep the fighting going on there.

It’s an ugly situation, and it’s going to get worse. But I want you to remember this post. If Iran does not get a nuclear weapon within the next year or so, we will invade them. It wasn’t a question of “if” but “when” with Iraq, and it’s no different now. I’ll eat my words if I am wrong, but I won’t be.

The hypocrisy I talked about at work. You can’t bring it clearer.

The USA right now to occupies a sovereign nation where it already killed thousands and thousands of innocent people and you dare to talke about “evil” in other nations, while you even choose to use the same disgusting rethoric the US goverment spouts?

To me and millions of people on this globe it was logical to believe what Hans Blix brought on the table in the UN. Do you ever look further then what your TV feeds you? Do you ever reason for yourself?
Following your reasoning it is completely logical for us to believe that US citizens are willing to swallow no matter what the lying murdering bastards that govern their nation sell them in order to have their support for invading and occupying sovereign nations.

  1. There was no such infrastructure.
  2. There is nothing “legitimate” in invading sovereign nations without that nation having attacked you first. Try to get that in your head first of all.

Maybe the world in its whole should attack and invade the USA to destroy its weapons, the weapon-development and -fabrication programs infrastructure, because sure enough they exist and they threaten world peace every day a bit more.
Would you call such a global action to destroy this threat legitimate? If you follow your reasoning avoiding being a hypocrite, you must do so.

When you drop tons and tons of bombs (not even talking about the splinterbombs dropped over civilians areas that keep on killing right now) you know that you kill people on the ground. If you deliberately start dropping bombs, you deliberately start with the killing of the people on the ground. What is for you so difficult to understand about this or do you say those bombs are not dropped deliberately but somehow fly on their own from the USA to other places?

Can you give me some back up as to when and where the government of Iran supports the killing of civilians?
Can you by any chance also give me the names of Iranian citizens who walk around blowing themselves and others to pieces?

You don’t know what you talk about. You have no clue about me.

No, you obviously do not. Look at Bush and his crew and there you see the incarnation of Evil. You just refuse to recognize it.

So sorry, but every nation that got its sovereignty recognized by the appropriate International Bodies is a sovereign nation.

The USA does not stop by declaring its intentions to invade and kill. It is still busy doing so. Where does that leave the USA in you brilliant logic?
And where do you get your quotes for your assumptions that the Iranian government makes the declarations you say they make? Where do you get your quotes about the government of Irak having made them?
And when talking about Israel, the champion in threatening other nations including Iran, where is your condemnation of Israel?
You have no clue about how much the blatant hypocrisy shines through what you write here, do you ?

I would prefer you to refrain from these kind of arrogant attempts to patronize me.

By this you openly and publicly declare to support international terrorism. The only condition for you is that it should be comitted by Israel and/or the USA.

They supported the invasion of an other sovereign nation and a lot of them still do despite the knowledge that they were openly lied to.
If you want to give it a try to talk about " evil" and “terrorism” and “threats” and “morality” I suggest you start with yourself and the ones you support.

Well, seen the climate today in the USA I really can only hope they do so as part of the international race for nuclear weapons starting up all over again at full speed.

Because as it is now Israel with its hidden nuclear program and its refusal to let UN inspections take place forms the greatest threat for the stability of the region.
In this it can compete with the USA, but the USA forms in addition a threat to the stability of the whole world.
The only way to stop this disgusting arrogance leading to invading sovereign nations, threaten sovereign nations, acting as if the world belongs to the USA (and Israel under the hypocritical US umbrella) is for others to develop their own set of nice destructive bombs.
It worked in the past, it shall work in the future. Once the whole world has them nobody shall ever dare to even talk about using them.

I completely resent the idea itself yet I am not the only one who is willing to switch camp in this thanks to the USA and its present bloodthirsty arrogant world threatening government.

You have no clue about Islam, Muslims, “dictatorships” and certainly not about “Jihad”.
Your insulting blinded arrogance leading you to use such typical patronizing denigrating way for declaring your way of thinking and living superior to others is a shining example of what I refer to in my first post.
I’m rather convinced that if you had the choice you would be on the first line to impose what you think the rest of the world should follow = your line of reasoning, your way of living, your ideas of how the world should function.
That are the best qualities for a dictator dreaming to conquer and rule at all cost. So I suggest you take a good look in the mirror and see while you are doing so the US government reflected in it behind you.