# ¡Ay, caramba! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 3, 2007, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623 "2007-05-03T15:56:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/21 "2007-05-04T04:04:10Z")
[QUOTE=CC] As most of us know, “rules” of language, even if decreed by some formal board, are more descriptive than prescriptive. As such, they describe the way the language is used. For the most part, the inverted punctuation marks at the beginning of a sentence are a help to the reader, as well as the writer, and so they’re there because they help us read and write and communicate. Anything that helps get a meaning across, even some sort of what you call a redundancy, is a benefit. In English writing, there are many redundancies that amplify or emphasize an idea, right? (Isn’t that one?). Redundancy alone does not disqualify the legitimacy of a figure of speech or writing automatically. If you read enough Spanish, you’ll see how instrumental these marks are in conveying meaning. xo, C. [/QUOTE] So then why have one at the end as well? ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/22 "2007-05-04T04:12:41Z")
Redundancy is often a good thing in language. Any communication medium has to deal with the “noise” factor; count on some of the signal getting garbled. So if important parts of the meaning are carried at only one point, it won’t take much blurring to turn the message into nonsense. Whereas if you get multiple clues, you’ve got a better chance of understanding what was intended. Here are some examples of useful redundancy in English: Multiple sorts of punctuation; for example, one could argue we don’t really need to have both commas and semicolons. Capitalization. i could write a sentence without it, couldn’t i? Spacing between words. Manyancientlanguagesdidnothaveanythingofthekind. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/23 "2007-05-04T07:16:48Z")
[QUOTE=SaintCad] So then why have one at the end as well? [/QUOTE] I think that should be obvious: to let you know that the question has finished. In Spanish you can have multi-sentence questions. I think it is worth repeating, without the clue of the opening symbol we (Hispanoparlantes) would have no clue that the sentence is a question (or exclamation) until we get to the end, by then we would have used the wrong inflection. > [@](#): > > Si yo, por malos de mis pecados, o por mi buena suerte, me encuentro por ahí con algún gigante, como de ordinario les acontece a los caballeros andantes, y le derribo de un encuentro, o le parto por mitad del cuerpo, o, finalmente, le venzo y le rindo, no será bien tener a quien enviarle presentado y que entre y se hinque de rodillas ante mi dulce señora, y diga con voz humilde y rendido: ‘‘Yo, señora, soy el gigante Caraculiambro, señor de la ínsula Malindrania, a quien venció en singular batalla el jamás como se debe alabado caballero don Quijote de la Mancha, el cual me mandó que me presentase ante vuestra merced, para que la vuestra grandeza disponga de mí a su talante?’’ How do you know where the question started? This is the original > [@](#): > > Si yo, por malos de mis pecados, o por mi buena suerte, me encuentro por ahí con algún gigante, como de ordinario les acontece a los caballeros andantes, y le derribo de un encuentro, o le parto por mitad del cuerpo, o, finalmente, le venzo y le rindo, ¿no será bien tener a quien enviarle presentado y que entre y se hinque de rodillas ante mi dulce señora, y diga con voz humilde y rendido: ‘‘Yo, señora, soy el gigante Caraculiambro, señor de la ínsula Malindrania, a quien venció en singular batalla el jamás como se debe alabado caballero don Quijote de la Mancha, el cual me mandó que me presentase ante vuestra merced, para que la vuestra grandeza disponga de mí a su talante’’? ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/24 "2007-05-04T13:02:09Z")
Excuse me, darlin’, but I think something’s missing from one of those quotes. They look mighty similar to me. xo, C. ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/25 "2007-05-04T14:09:01Z")
[QUOTE=CC] Excuse me, darlin’, but I think something’s missing from one of those quotes. They look mighty similar to me. xo, C. [/QUOTE] You’ll find the variation in the second line: the original has "¿no será " The point would be that communication is difficult, and in most languages cues have been developed to help translate between written and spoken language. Those cues sometimes seem odd to someone coming to the language from outside; but if it’s your own language, you’ll probably know how to use them effectively. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/26 "2007-05-04T14:25:52Z")
[QUOTE=Grimpen] You’ll find the variation in the second line: the original has "¿no será " [/QUOTE] Grazie! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/27 "2007-05-04T14:52:03Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] English, French, German, Italian, and other languages have gotten along perfectly well without one, which indicates that it isn’t necessary. [/QUOTE] Beer isn’t necessary either, but life is definitely better with it than without it. ---
**Author:** ![ChicanoRojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@ChicanoRojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChicanoRojo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/28 "2007-05-04T15:07:18Z")
[QUOTE=Grimpen] The point would be that communication is difficult, and in most languages cues have been developed to help translate between written and spoken language. Those cues sometimes seem odd to someone coming to the language from outside; but if it’s your own language, you’ll probably know how to use them effectively. [/QUOTE] One thing native English-speakers have to take into account is that Spanish writers (and perhaps by the nature Spanish grammar rules) tend to write long and windy sentences. The “¿” and “¡” are excellent cues when reading those windy sentences. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@Mighty\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Girl)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623/29 "2007-05-04T19:16:01Z")
Such as the one I quoted from El Hidalgo Don Quijote de La Mancha. By the time you reach the closing question mark it would have been too late to convey what you wanted. Plus, how do you know where that mammoth of a question started? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ay-caramba/402623.md?page=1)