# Ayn Rand and the needy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794 "2014-02-20T15:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/41 "2014-02-20T18:13:02Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > He received benefits he would years later tell others in the same situation they hadn’t earned. Can you cite that? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/42 "2014-02-20T18:14:08Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If Social Security was privatized then yeah, little Paul wouldn’t have been able to afford college drawing from the SS fund his payments made possible over the first 16 years of his life. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3dDotrb\_M](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3dDotrb_M) Yeah, because there’s no possible way his father could have used that money to buy life insurance. Good catch! ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/43 "2014-02-20T18:16:23Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If Social Security was privatized then yeah, little Paul wouldn’t have been able to afford college drawing from the SS fund his payments made possible over the first 16 years of his life. I don’t know a whole lot about it, but why wouldn’t privatized social security have survivor’s benefits? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/44 "2014-02-20T18:17:17Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > See, I just don’t get this. Leave aside the compelled nature of medicare. When I buy insurance (or an extended warranty or whatever), I’m gambling that I will get more benefits than I pay. If I don’t, it wasn’t worth the purchase. (The other possiblity is that the scope of the loss is so great that it makes me risk averse – which is why I get homeowner’s insurance). In contast, the insurance company is gambling that I won’t collect more than I pay in. In any particular transaction, one of us wins. But, the average person needs to pay in more than they take out, otherwise the system collapses. But I don’t think even Rand would argue that you were unproductive (or inferior) if you “win.” Fair enough. I’ll concede. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/45 "2014-02-20T18:17:29Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > If Social Security was privatized then yeah, little Paul wouldn’t have been able to afford college drawing from the SS fund his payments made possible over the first 16 years of his life. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3dDotrb\_M](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y3dDotrb_M) yes but can we assume he is against social security, welfare, etc for minors? maybe he is, probably is, but do we know for certain? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/46 "2014-02-20T19:26:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Exactamundo! > [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, she would not. If you paid in, you have every right to get the benefit. Medicare is not really insurance in the classic sense. The cohort of people paying into insurance in any given year is also the cohotr of people who are claiming benefits in that year. To the extent that there are any investment gains by the insurance fund, the amount paid out can exceed the amount paid in. Your premium is based on the actuarial cost you present to the insurance pool. This is not the case with medicare. The cohort paying in today will not be receiving benefits until some future year. The benefits exceed the premiums by much more than the investment gains. The amount you pay into the pool is determined by your wage income (not royalties or investment income, wage income). You simply cannot have the entire cohort of insurance beneficiaries recieving more than their premiums paid plus investment gains and call it insurance in the classic sense. There is an insurance element to it but there is a large subsidy by today’s worker for the health costs of today’s beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/47 "2014-02-20T19:34:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Medicare is not really insurance in the classic sense. The cohort of people paying into insurance in any given year is also the cohotr of people who are claiming benefits in that year. To the extent that there are any investment gains by the insurance fund, the amount paid out can exceed the amount paid in. Your premium is based on the actuarial cost you present to the insurance pool. > > This is not the case with medicare. The cohort paying in today will not be receiving benefits until some future year. The benefits exceed the premiums by much more than the investment gains. The amount you pay into the pool is determined by your wage income (not royalties or investment income, wage income). > > You simply cannot have the entire cohort of insurance beneficiaries recieving more than their premiums paid plus investment gains and call it insurance in the classic sense. There is an insurance element to it but there is a large subsidy by today’s worker for the health costs of today’s beneficiaries. But you have to pay into it to get benefits. Once you force me pay into a system, you can’t fault me for receiving benefits from the system, even if the benefits are greater than what I paid in even if I favor eliminating the system. Although not an actual insurance system, it shares those essential features with insurance. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/48 "2014-02-20T19:56:07Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But you have to pay into it to get benefits. Once you force me pay into a system, you can’t fault me for receiving benefits from the system, even if the benefits are greater than what I paid in even if I favor eliminating the system. Although not an actual insurance system, it shares those essential features with insurance. Right. From the perspective of Rand, a good analogy would be ‘why shouldn’t I get some of my stuff back from the thief who took it if I’m given a chance to do so?’ Seems fairly straight forward to me, and I’m failing to see the hypocrisy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/49 "2014-02-20T19:58:29Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Right. From the perspective of Rand, a good analogy would be ‘why shouldn’t I get some of my stuff back from the thief who took it if I’m given a chance to do so?’ Seems fairly straight forward to me, and I’m failing to see the hypocrisy. Because you’re getting back more than the thief took from you. You are also getting some of the stuff the thief took from the current workforce. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/50 "2014-02-20T20:00:26Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because you’re getting back more than the thief took from you. You are also getting some of the stuff the thief took from the current workforce. How do you figure? I’ve paid into Social Security since my first job (35+ years and counting now). Even if I live to be a hundred, how do I get back more than I paid? How did Rand, since she died at 77? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/51 "2014-02-20T20:05:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Because you’re getting back more than the thief took from you. You are also getting some of the stuff the thief took from the current workforce. Well, it’s not my analogy, but it doesn’t matter if you’re getting more back than you put in. You could have used that money for something else (private insurance or investments) that would have done the same, or perhaps better. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/52 "2014-02-20T20:24:57Z")
> [@XT](#): > > How do you figure? I’ve paid into Social Security since my first job (35+ years and counting now). Even if I live to be a hundred, how do I get back more than I paid? How did Rand, since she died at 77? We were talking about medicare. I don’t know the specifics of how Rand died but you can burn up an entire lifetime’s worth of medicare contributions in a year. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/53 "2014-02-20T20:26:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, it’s not my analogy, but it doesn’t matter if you’re getting more back than you put in. You could have used that money for something else (private insurance or investments) that would have done the same, or perhaps better. Yeah but if we’re talking about medicare, I’m saying that it is not actuarially sound and the beneficiaries as a group are drawing out more than the sum of what they put in plus the reasoanble investment gains of what they put in. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/54 "2014-02-20T20:42:35Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > We were talking about medicare. I don’t know the specifics of how Rand died but you can burn up an entire lifetime’s worth of medicare contributions in a year. Well, it’s your assertion…can you show that SHE used up more than she paid into it and thus was taking from someone else (we can even leave aside John’s correct assertion that even if you receive the same or even a little bit more that doesn’t equate to what you might have gotten as a return had you invested it yourself)? ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/55 "2014-02-20T21:00:36Z")
[http://youtu.be/4E2\_zay3B6Q](http://youtu.be/4E2_zay3B6Q) ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/56 "2014-02-20T21:18:58Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > If you had any real concern for people, saw any real value or human connection to them, you would FELL that it was your moral obligation to help them. So people have a moral obligation to **FEEL** for needy people, and then collectively act upon this feeling? Are all people supposed to share in this feeling to the same degree or measure? Is there some floor % of my income or personal wealth that would satisfy the minimum measure of support that is required? If I want to be selfish and keep all my money to myself, aside from being morally bankrupt in the eyes of the remaining society, should there be some other form of public punishment for my lack of generosity? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/57 "2014-02-20T21:25:06Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So people have a moral obligation to **FEEL** for needy people, and then collectively act upon this feeling? > > Are all people supposed to share in this feeling to the same degree or measure? Is there some floor % of my income or personal wealth that would satisfy the minimum measure of support that is required? > > If I want to be selfish and keep all my money to myself, aside from being morally bankrupt in the eyes of the remaining society, should there be some other form of public punishment for my lack of generosity? i think we have two different topics here, first one mine, second yours: 1- can you claim to be sympathetic to the needy but do nothing to help them i don’t think you can 2- should people be coerced into helping others via taxes or other means in a perfect world people shouldn’t but this world aint perfect and if takes taxes to fix that i say force people to pay taxes ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/58 "2014-02-20T23:05:05Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > should people be coerced into helping others via taxes or other means > in a perfect world people shouldn’t but this world aint perfect and if takes taxes to fix that i say force people to pay taxes Well, that’s nice that you think that. Ayn Rand thought differently. Convince me that you’re right and she isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/59 "2014-02-20T23:13:14Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s nice that you think that. Ayn Rand thought differently. > > Convince me that you’re right and she isn’t. i dont have to convince you. we already have taxes in place and we are probably going to just keep getting more. whether or not you think it is fair is not really my concern. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/60 "2014-02-20T23:47:11Z")
> [@Falchion](#): > > Don’t we just call that insurance? Not when you can’t opt out, we don’t. Your options as a wage-earner are (1) to contribute. Your options as a person 70 or older are (1) to participate. (The mandatory participation age is still 70, right?) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794.md?page=4)