# Ayn Rand and the needy **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 20, 2014, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794 "2014-02-20T15:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/61 "2014-02-21T02:13:41Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > i dont have to convince you. we already have taxes in place and we are probably going to just keep getting more. whether or not you think it is fair is not really my concern. Very illuminating post. Quite unbelievable, but illuminating. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/62 "2014-02-21T02:28:49Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Well, it’s your assertion…can you show that SHE used up more than she paid into it and thus was taking from someone else (we can even leave aside John’s correct assertion that even if you receive the same or even a little bit more that doesn’t equate to what you might have gotten as a return had you invested it yourself)? Where do I assert anything about Ayn Rand’s medicare? I am making comments about medicare in general. John’s assertion seems irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/63 "2014-02-21T02:33:30Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > i dont have to convince you. we already have taxes in place and we are probably going to just keep getting more. whether or not you think it is fair is not really my concern. OK. I think we have established that there is no point in engaging with you on this MB. Enjoy the time you have here before you are banned. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/64 "2014-02-21T02:43:32Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Where do I assert anything about Ayn Rand’s medicare? I am making comments about medicare in general. John’s assertion seems irrelevant. Post #49…the post I originally replied to that started this entire sub-discussion. You said ‘Because you’re getting back more than the thief took from you. You are also getting some of the stuff the thief took from the current workforce.’, in the context of talking about Rand. If you just meant SS or Medicare in general then why did you quote my specific response of ‘Right. From the perspective of Rand, a good analogy would be ‘why shouldn’t I get some of my stuff back from the thief who took it if I’m given a chance to do so?’ Seems fairly straight forward to me, and I’m failing to see the hypocrisy.’, since I WASN’T just talking about SS or Medicare in general, obviously? If you want to make some story about Medicare in general paying more to the average person than they pay in then…well, wait…how about supporting THAT assertion then? Because I find it a bit hard to believe, since that would mean that the program would send out more than it takes in on average, which would mean it should have gone broke a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![YoungKusher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3e96dc/32.png) [@YoungKusher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoungKusher)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/65 "2014-02-21T10:44:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > The problem is that a lot of folks have compassion for the needy but conservatives have convinced them that the people being helped by government welfare programs aren’t needy, they are lazy takers who take while you bust your ass to provide for your family and pay your taxes. Heck these moochers even have color TVs and microwaves. Well it’s not like the conservatives just made that up. I’ve actually met people who claim entitlement to government aid because their ancestors were slaves. Some part of me wants to not disagree entirely with that sentiment, but when they are purposely not working and are just siphoning money off the system… there is a freakin problem. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/66 "2014-02-21T14:32:57Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > i think we have two different topics here, first one mine, second yours: > > 1- can you claim to be sympathetic to the needy but do nothing to help them > i don’t think you can > > 2- should people be coerced into helping others via taxes or other means > in a perfect world people shouldn’t but this world aint perfect and if takes taxes to fix that i say force people to pay taxes So, all people are supposed to be sympathetic to the needy? And if people aren’t, tough because you are going to tax them regardless. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/67 "2014-02-21T14:40:11Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > So, all people are supposed to be sympathetic to the needy? And if people aren’t, tough because you are going to tax them regardless. Got it. yes ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/68 "2014-02-21T14:58:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > yes Seems pointless to include all the moral shaming, then. Just collect the taxes and disperse the assistance, for so long and to such degree as the people’s duly elected representatives desire. Why the need to condemn Rand as heartless & callous, when she’s paying into the system the same as everyone else? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/69 "2014-02-21T15:06:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Why the need to condemn Rand as heartless & callous perhaps because she, and her followers, take such glee in doing so? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/70 "2014-02-21T15:13:33Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > perhaps because she, and her followers, take such glee in doing so? For its own sake, then? Fair enough. I still don’t get it, as shaming people is typically motivated by a desire to get them to change their behavior…and the Randians are behaving as you would like, paying taxes that support government assistance programs. To each their own, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/71 "2014-02-21T15:56:57Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > For its own sake, then? Fair enough. I still don’t get it, as shaming people is typically motivated by a desire to get them to change their behavior…and the Randians are behaving as you would like, paying taxes that support government assistance programs. > > To each their own, I guess. Well first let me say, I agree with you that shame and ridicule and other tactics are punitive and hostile and can’t be considered constructive in any way. Coercive maybe but not constructive. Having said that, I feel that if any one did deserve it it would be them. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2014, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/72 "2014-02-21T21:50:22Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course you can. If you observe yourself carefully you will find that is **exactly** how you feel the next time you give a bum spare change. 1. Bettler. — Man soll die Bettler abschaffen: denn man ärgert sich, ihnen zu geben, und ärgert sich, ihnen nicht zu geben. 185 Beggars — We should get rid of beggars entirely, for whether we give money to them or not, we find ourselves quite annoyed. Nietzsche, _Morgenröthe_, 1881 ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/73 "2014-02-22T13:18:53Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Seems pointless to include all the moral shaming, then. Just collect the taxes and disperse the assistance, for so long and to such degree as the people’s duly elected representatives desire. Why the need to condemn Rand as heartless & callous, when she’s paying into the system the same as everyone else? If someone seriously bitched about how the meddling government won’t let him use black babies as soccer balls, I’d call that person heartless and callous (at least!), even if he refrained from kicking babies purely out of fear of the law. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/74 "2014-02-22T14:12:37Z")
Rand was in fact very generous, especially to young people who shared her values, and weren’t getting assistance from the usual venues. To her, it was considered an act of integrity, much the same as supporting a politician who shared her values. And if you could afford it, it would have been hypocritical not to offer your support. Even to a homeless person . . . if you can detect an intention of bettering his situation and starting to lead a free and productive life, you’d be a hypocrite not to offer your help, as long as you could afford it. But if he has no intention of taking responsibility for his life, and has a sense of entitlement, then he’d better look elsewhere for assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/75 "2014-02-22T15:57:27Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > If someone seriously bitched about how the meddling government won’t let him use black babies as soccer balls, I’d call that person heartless and callous (at least!), even if he refrained from kicking babies purely out of fear of the law. Fair enough, but that’s really analogous. Rand didn’t believe that the needy shouldn’t be helped, just that no one should be\* forced\* to help them. That’s not a heartless or callous position, to my mind. A heartless or callous position would be that they _shouldn’t_ be helped, not that they should be helped through a different organizational framework. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/76 "2014-02-22T17:36:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So what say you all. Can you have true concern and compassion for the needy and at the same time be resentful if you are forced to help them? Absolutely. The key term there is “forced”. I resent greatly my tax dollars being taken from me and given to others as welfare. If I want to give my money to the needy, I should be the one making the choice as to how and where it is spent, not some politician who is buying votes with it. ---
**Author:** ![Farin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e79b87/32.png) [@Farin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farin)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/77 "2014-02-22T17:39:34Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Absolutely. The key term there is “forced”. I resent greatly my tax dollars being taken from me and given to others as welfare. If I want to give my money to the needy, I should be the one making the choice as to how and where it is spent, not some politician who is buying votes with it. Question for the sake of argument (i don’t actually believe anything this would lead to): Would you be okay with forcing payment via taxes if those that received welfare benefits could not vote while receiving welfare benefits? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/78 "2014-02-22T17:45:23Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Absolutely. The key term there is “forced”. I resent greatly my tax dollars being taken from me and given to others as welfare. If I want to give my money to the needy, I should be the one making the choice as to how and where it is spent, not some politician who is buying votes with it. You mean like how I’m forced to pay taxes that are used to prop up failing corporations in the form of subsidies? Are you aware that more is spent on corporate welfare than individual? And until the last few years, it was more than twice as much. ---
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/79 "2014-02-22T17:55:17Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > You mean like how I’m forced to pay taxes that are used to prop up failing corporations in the form of subsidies? Yes, exactly like that. These statements add nothing to a discussion on Rand’s values. Have you read her books? She was entirely against crony capitalism, probably more than she was against welfare related redistribution. The biggest ‘villains’ in her books are those capitalists who use government handouts and laws to extract rents. Her solution to this is to reduce the size of government. You can debate whether or not that is a valid solution, but that is a separate issue. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2014, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794/80 "2014-02-22T22:01:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Fair enough, but that’s really analogous. Rand didn’t believe that the needy shouldn’t be helped, just that no one should be\* forced\* to help them. That’s not a heartless or callous position, to my mind. A heartless or callous position would be that they _shouldn’t_ be helped, not that they should be helped through a different organizational framework. Her books seem to say that the needy are lazy, unthinking, and obnoxious, so no reasonable person _would_ voluntarily help them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-and-the-needy/681794.md?page=5)