# Ayn Rand for Dummies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078 "2009-11-02T18:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/241 "2009-11-09T20:35:16Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > After some more thought, I wanted to drop back in to add this: I think Rand’s work was - and still is - so successful because she attempted to provide a moral defense for self interest. In the west, Christianity in the religious sphere of human affairs and Marxism in the secular both provided moral arguments for altruism. To be morally good through these lenses, one had to care about one’s brother and sister, but not about oneself. Objectivism argues from a moral standpoint for self interest, and IMO (and the opinion of many others; hell Atlas Shrugged sells how many hundreds of thousands of copies every year?) does so quite successfully. Moral defenses for self interest have always been around. Hers was more than a mere defense of self interest. Nothing in Christianity tells you you have to care for your neighbor MORE than you do yourself. While Jesus talks about turning the other cheek, it is not a sin to KILL someone in self defense. There are some goods that should be distributed according to ability to pay (fancy cars and flat scren tvs,etc) but as a society we have decided that there are some goods that we all deserve regardless of our ability to pay. Education is one of them and health care is quickly becoming another. Ayn Rand’s philosophy allows me to take the position that taxing me to pay for the education nof poor children is theft as surely as if their parents stole the money from me and enrolled thyeir children in private school. Or am I mistaken about the idea that Ayn Rand basically condemns all taxes beyond what is required for national security? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/242 "2009-11-09T20:37:52Z")
> [@kevlaw](#): > > That’s a nice insight, but I’ll offer a competing one. > > I think Rand’s work was - and still is - so successful because she highlighted a particular kind of virtuous living. We can all identify with the virtues that she described and some of us even admire them. Her genius was to suggest that those virtues alone could support a complex society. > > That’s an appealing idea but ultimately, I fear, wishful thinking. It sold a lot of books though. Let me offer another competing insight. I think Ayn Rand’s work is successful because it give people who are inclined to be greedy and selfish a philosophical morality that doesn’t make them look quite as morally bankrupt as they are. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/243 "2009-11-09T20:40:20Z")
Amen Damuri. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/244 "2009-11-09T20:43:13Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > Matthew 6:24 “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.” There is a big difference between serving money (as your god) and letting money serve you as your tool. > [@](#): > > That’s just a few of the many passages that extol altruism. It clearly is an important theme of Christianity. As I stated above, both Christianity and Marxism extol altruism; Objectivism (for whatever its worth) offers an alternative moral compass. And yet Christianity has survived 2000 years while marxism didn’t even make it 50 years. Don’t you think that there might be basic underlying differnces between the two? A difference that Rand seems ot recgnize but then dismiss. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/245 "2009-11-09T20:48:02Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Winterhawk - I do not know how to answer questions 1 and 3 because none of that stuff has even happened to me. I can answer #2 for you. I have given to United Way charities and in doing so I understand that my money goes for scores if not hundreds of different charities, some of which I may have no particular love for or interest in. I do so however, in the belief that there is a greater societal good in my donation that outweighs any slight annoyance I may have with a specific recipient. I do not expect to have things my way all the time. I am not that egocentric or self important. But see, you just kind of proved my point (or at least added another data point in favor of it). You stated that you support United Way because on the whole, you think your donations are being put to good use, even though some of the money might go to things you don’t support. Would you still support them if ALL the money went to things you didn’t support (or actively opposed)? You give because you value giving, and you value (some subset of) the causes that UW supports. Do you do it because you feel you have to, or because you choose to? That’s the crux of the thing, in my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/246 "2009-11-09T20:48:20Z")
> [@A.Selene](#): > > They most certainly can. Rand is arguing that there is no moral imperative to help others, while other philosophies and most religions would disagree. As I understand it, and IANAO, things that are “wrong” in this view are actions with _actively_ hurt someone: theft, murder, abuse, fraud, etc. Choosing not to help someone, for whatever reason, is not a morally deficient choice. So when you are taxed to pay for someone elses child to get educated, is the government stealing from you? What if they tax you and every single one of those dollars goes towards educating your own children but you do not get the choice of raising your children in ignorance. Has the government stolen from you then as well by robbing you of the choice to raise your children in ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/247 "2009-11-09T20:49:54Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Let me offer another competing insight. > > I think Ayn Rand’s work is successful because it give people who are inclined to be greedy and selfish a philosophical morality that doesn’t make them look quite as morally bankrupt as they are. But who is truly the most selfish and greedy - those who merely want to keep what they’ve earned, or those who insist that money be taken from those people by force and spent on their own wants and needs instead? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/248 "2009-11-09T20:52:37Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I think that’s perfectly fine until someone else has to pay for you to act on your whims or fulfill your dreams. If you have a particular dream to do something, you should use logic and reason to plan a path to get yourself there. Not wishful thinking. Thanks. I suppose context is important when it comes to Rand’s various pronouncements. Maybe I need to read a book. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/249 "2009-11-09T20:52:56Z")
Winterhawk — I guess the difference is that I do not believe for a second that I know it all. I do not believe that my interests should always win the day simply because they are my interests and beliefs. I accept that I live in a society with 300 million others and I believe their is a collective interest and a collective good that goes beyond my own selfish good or even the individual selfish good of each of those 300 million. ---
**Author:** ![valleyofthedolls](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a4c791/32.png) [@valleyofthedolls](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/valleyofthedolls)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/250 "2009-11-09T21:02:34Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > So what would be an pseudo philosophy for “smart people”? Ethics although I wouldn’t label it a pseudo philosophy. I wouldn’t label Objectivism a pseudo philosophy either. Out of curiosity, why do you consider Objectivism a philosophy for smart people? Most of the Rand fans (as well as detractors) I’ve met don’t really understand her stuff, at all. As I said in an earlier post, most people just take away greed is good from her works. Obviously, this is incorrect but if a philosophy attracts people who aren’t capable of basic reading comprehension, is it really something for smart people? I used to work in a bookstore. One day, I was helping a customer when someone, Wall Street Journal in hand, interrupted us, apparently the idea of waiting in line wasn’t his bag. He asked for the business section. I pointed to it. He walked off and I started helping another customer. Guy comes back, annoyed with me. Interrrupts the person I’m helping with “I can’t find the book I want.” I told him that I was helping someone and I would be with him as soon as I was done. He ignores this and asks for Atlas Shrugged. I tell him it’s in fiction under R for Rand. He tells me it’s a business book. I tell him it’s in fiction and that I can help him after I’m done with the customer I was already helping. He stalks off in the direction of fiction. I finish with the customer and go look the guy. Find him in fiction where he says “You don’t have it, why don’t you have it?” whereupon I let him know we don’t keep Atlas Shrugged under the L section but we can find it under the R’s. Would Ayn Rand really be proud to call him a fan? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/251 "2009-11-09T21:03:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s amazing how much hostility one finds towards Rand from her critics. If all she is is just a bad writer and childish pseudo-philosopher, why does she generate so much ill feelings? Do people feel that way about Dan Brown? Partly it’s because Rand devotees are so, well, _devoted_. It seems more like a weird cult than a political philosophy, an impression that is bolstered by the Randian penchant for couching philosophical ideas in _moral_ terms. It is very offputting to have to fend off these cultish followers of Rand all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/252 "2009-11-09T21:05:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s amazing how much hostility one finds towards Rand from her critics. If all she is is just a bad writer and childish pseudo-philosopher, why does she generate so much ill feelings? Do people feel that way about Dan Brown? I supect that if immoral people used Dan Browns work to justify their immorality, people would have problems with Dan Brown as well even if Dan brown never said anything that was actually immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/253 "2009-11-09T21:06:56Z")
> [@haymarketmartyr](#): > > Winterhawk — I guess the difference is that I do not believe for a second that I know it all. I do not believe that my interests should always win the day simply because they are my interests and beliefs. I accept that I live in a society with 300 million others and I believe their is a collective interest and a collective good that goes beyond my own selfish good or even the individual selfish good of each of those 300 million. I don’t believe I know it all either–nor, do I think, did Rand (although she did come off that way sometimes! 🙂 ) What a lot of people don’t seem to realize, though, is that Rand was not anti-society. She doesn’t advocate a series of little human islands all wrapped up in their own selves to the detriment of everyone else. She merely says that the most moral and rational way to live is to practice rational self-interest–note that word “rational,” it’s very important. When rational people work to advance their own interests and those interests come into conflict, the only rational thing to do is work it out, compromise in a way that benefits all sides. That might mean that someone might have to give up something of what they want–but again, it comes back to values. If the person values living in a functioning society more than he does having all of his creature comforts, then it’s rational to give up some comforts or desires in order to make the society work. Rand didn’t approve of hedonism any more than she approved of collectivism. Her ideal relationship between people was that of the trader: each side honorably and fairly trying to advance his own interests while meanwhile making compromises in favor of the other person’s interests until the two come to a mutually desirable agreement. It’s really no different in principle than bargaining, which isn’t an immoral act. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/254 "2009-11-09T21:14:01Z")
> [@winterhawk11](#): > > Well, that’s hardly \*all \*that Objectivism is about (see other posts in this thread who’ve said it better than I would). But it does seem like an awful lot of people claim to have problems with what seems to be to be a pretty self-evident idea (that doing things to advance yourself and those people, things, and ideas you value is morally superior to doing things to advance what you do _not_ value, out of force, coercion or guilt (with the caveat, of course, that you respect and protect others’ rights to do the same)). > > I don’t get it–why would any rational person sacrifice something they value for something they don’t value (or actively oppose)? When answering, please keep in mind that any sacrifice (including giving money–even money you couldn’t necessarily afford–to a church or charity, giving up an opportunity in favor of a loved one or friend, or even giving up your life for a friend/loved one/cause) is _not_ a sacrifice if they are important to you–because you are supporting a higher value (for you) at the expense of a lesser one. They are only immoral if you make them involuntarily, out of guilt, coercion, or other force. A rational person may not but a rational society very well may. I will bring up the example of education once again. A rational society may decide that educating all children regardless of ability to pay is beneficial to society. My next door neighbor on the other hand thinks that our police protection should be directly proportional to his real estate taxes and thinks that the state is stealing his money to educate poor kids. So is our society immoral for forcing my neighbor to pay real estate taxes for educating someone else’s children or is my next door neighbor just being incredibly selfish and using Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” as jsutification for his selfishness? ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/255 "2009-11-09T21:18:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Nzinga** , I think the point is that some people don’t _want_ you to read it. It contains Incorrect Thoughts, and if you read it on your own, without one of the Enlightened to explain to you what you should think about it, the danger exists that you might not come to the correct conclusions about it. > > It is rather like the Roman Catholic position on the Bible before the translation of Scripture into the vernacular languages. It works out better if some official designate reads the dangerous work in question, and tells you what you need to know and think. There are fewer questions that way, and much less danger that you might accept that which you should reject, and reject that which you should accept. > > Regards, > Shodan I don’t remember agreeing with you before this, but I love this post. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![haymarketmartyr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/35a633/32.png) [@haymarketmartyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/haymarketmartyr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/256 "2009-11-09T21:21:58Z")
You gave a solid explanation Winterhawk. the only problem is that the way Rand wants society to work is not the way it works at all. There are far larger and more powerful influences in our lives than others just like us. Its not at all about one trader sitting down with another equal trader. Not by any stretch of the imagination is it anywhere near that. And even if it was, how can I possibly ever get to the point where I know enough to handle each of those situations on my own as an individual. It has been my experience that Ayn Rand, her followers and the political ideology of libertarianism that leans upon her live in some other world than the real one I live in. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/257 "2009-11-09T21:22:56Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > A rational society may decide that educating all children regardless of ability to pay is beneficial to society. My next door neighbor on the other hand thinks that our police protection should be directly proportional to his real estate taxes and thinks that the state is stealing his money to educate poor kids. > > So is our society immoral for forcing my neighbor to pay real estate taxes for educating someone else’s children or is my next door neighbor just being incredibly selfish and using Ayn Rand’s “philosophy” as jsutification for his selfishness? Well, now you get into an area where Rand and I disagree–she believed that the only proper function of government is to provide things like national defense, courts, and police services. While I am in favor of limited government and don’t support a lot of the things the American government does, I do believe that it’s in our best interests as a society to provide at least basic education for all children. My rationale for that is that educated children will grow up to be productive members of society and that’s in everyone’s best interest. Rand would argue that children should be educated privately (through private schools, with charity taking up the slack for those who couldn’t afford it) but I believe that in a society as big as ours, that’s somewhat impractical. Again, my disagreements with Rand usually come in the areas of things that might work in an ideal Rand-approved world, but don’t work in the real world any more than collectivism does. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/258 "2009-11-09T21:23:41Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > She wasn’t that extreme (“starve your own children”). She may have stated things differently outside of Atlas Shrugged but my exposure to Ayn Rand is limited to Atalas Shrugged and IIRC that is pretty close to the position she expressed in John Galt’s broadcast. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/259 "2009-11-09T21:23:50Z")
**Nzinga** , A friend recently finished **Atlas Shrugged** and has encouraged me to read it too. I appreciate your question and I’m inspired to read it myself now, mainly due to the naysayers in this thread - it gets my back up when I read snappy one liners instead of answers to a sincere question. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/260 "2009-11-09T21:31:21Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > **Damuri Ajashi** , is John Galt an immoral person? Rearden? John Galt’s philosophy is immoral, especially the way it is being used by folks these days. If everyone who quoted Rand decided to give up everything they owned and drop out of society to free themselves from the social contract then I guess I would have to respect that. Really, they should try it, maybe we will all beg them to come back and be our masters. Somehow I think that the world will be able to eke its way forward without them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078.md?page=14)