# Ayn Rand for Dummies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078 "2009-11-02T18:16:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/301 "2009-11-10T14:38:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > She’s aggressively opposed to someone demanding empathy from others. She has no problem at all with someone, of their own volition, expressing empathy. So I think you misunderstand her philosophy. Will she make a difference between i) “demanding” empathy ii) finding people without empathy awkward, stupid, evil? Short, normally empathy is not asked for. Either you have it or you don’t. And if you don’t, you are a jerk. By the standards of most people. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/302 "2009-11-10T14:55:36Z")
This is excellent news for people slandered as psychopaths for their utter lack of empathy! Turns out that they’re actually Objectivists! ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/303 "2009-11-10T15:00:10Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > This is excellent news for people slandered as psychopaths for their utter lack of empathy! Turns out that they’re actually Objectivists! ‘Objectivism’ and ‘libertarianism’ have always been nothing but self-justifying ideologies for sociopaths. The rest are ‘I’ve got mine’ rabble looking for an intellectual fig-leaf. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/304 "2009-11-10T15:04:45Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > The phrase “rational self-interest” does not scream empathy to me. > > Saying that one should never sacrifice of himself for others, and indeed that it would be “immoral” to do so tells me very clearly that empathy has no part in Ayn Rand’s thought process. Ayn Rand says: Maybe you have a unorthodox [definition](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy) of what “[empathy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)” is. In the links, “empathy” defined as, \*“identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.” \*or as Wiki page puts it, _“the capability to share and understand another’s emotions and feelings”_ A person can certainly hold the view that denying “self-sacrifice” is compatible with “identifying with others’ thoughts or understanding others’ emotions”. You can hold both thoughts at the same time. Believing in self-sacrifice is not a prerequisite for empathy. What’s the confusion? Perhaps you meant to use a different word other than “empathy”? > [@](#): > > With all due respect, **John Mace** , I think it is _you_ who does not understand Rand’s philosophy. And I think you added more confusion with your use of the word “empathy”. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/305 "2009-11-10T15:08:01Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > A person can certainly hold the view that denying “self-sacrifice” is compatible with “identifying with others’ thoughts or understanding others’ emotions”. You can hold both thoughts at the same time. Believing in self-sacrifice is not a prerequisite for empathy. So I can sympathize with a beggar, but if I actually give him a dollar, I am immoral. OK, now I see how it works. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/306 "2009-11-10T15:11:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, thats a fundamentalist dogma right there, isn’t it? Where is it written that Proudhon (“Property is theft”) is wrong and Rand is right? If there is no God to declare these fundamental facts of moral existence, then they are nothing more than dogma, basic assumptions that look suspiciously like assuming what supports our philosophy is fact. I can write it here if you like. I think we are all operating under a fundamental assumption that freedom is a good thing. And one of the most basic freedoms is the freedom to work as you see fit. > [@elucidator](#): > > But of course property is not an absolute, you are not permitted to use your property to the detriment of others, you can’t poison your part of the river if I’m going to drink from it on my part. Property rights are but one of the gems of our freedoms, it is not the crown gem for which the others are mere embellishments. To my way of thinking, its pretty puny and should be grateful to even be allowed to hang around with the Big Boys. And now we get to it. “Your way of thinking” is the very thing that Rand (and really most rational hardworking people) are opposed to. Dictators and tyranical governments throughout history have attempted to convince their citizens that they are no more than agents of the State. Their labor should be for the good of the State and all it’s Citizens (Comrades, People, whathaveyou). All your possessions are yours only by the grace and the whim of the state. In what way is that not slavery? Property rights are puny? Would you feel that way if I decide to take your car tomorrow morning and prevented you from getting to work because I need it more? How about if the government decided to evict you from your home and gave it to some homeless people who needed it more? > [@spoke-](#): > > The phrase “rational self-interest” does not scream empathy to me. > > Saying that one should never sacrifice of himself for others, and indeed that it would be “immoral” to do so tells me very clearly that empathy has no part in Ayn Rand’s thought process. Ayn Rand says: Why should I sacrifice myself for others? Which others should I sacrifice myself for? When would be enough? Should I be forced to sacrifice because you think it’s the “right thing to do”? > [@The Piranha Brothers](#): > > Robin Hood is another example of where ayn rant goes wrong in changing the facts to fit her theory. Correct me if I’m wrong but she immediately dismisses him as a parasite, a communist avant la lettre. But in reality (the historical facts) noblemen never did any work because that was against their ways. They lived off the peasants. On top of that in England they were foreign oppressors (Normans and other French controlling the Anglo-Saxons). So someone (in this case a fictionary character) steals the money they stole and gives it back to the people who do all the work. Who is good and who is evil in that scenario? Most people just focus on the “stealing from the rich and giving to the poor” part, as if simply being poor was a virtue and being wealthy was a serious character flaw. That kind of thinking leads to the belief that it is ok to take from those who have to give it to those who don’t. Everyone thinks it’s perfectly acceptable for Jean Valjean to steal a loaf of bread to feed his family. What if the whole neighborhood steals a loaf of bread? How much bread will there be if the baker goes out of business because everyone is stealing his bread? > [@tagos](#): > > ‘Objectivism’ and ‘libertarianism’ have always been nothing but self-justifying ideologies for sociopaths. The rest are ‘I’ve got mine’ rabble looking for an intellectual fig-leaf. I guess if we are going to resort to namecalling as intelligent debate, socialism and communism are nothing but self-justifying idealogies for the lazy and incompetant to steal from the hard working and successful. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/307 "2009-11-10T15:16:23Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why should I sacrifice myself for others? Which others should I sacrifice myself for? When would be enough? Should I be forced to sacrifice because you think it’s the “right thing to do”? Let’s say the family next door is starving. Ayn Rand says it would be “immoral” for you to give them a can of beans from your pantry. Is that the philosophy you mean to defend? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/308 "2009-11-10T15:20:28Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > …Property rights are puny?.. Didn’t say that, said they were puny in comparison to the others on the short list of fundamental human rights. Taken alone, no such right is “puny”, compared to the others, likely so. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/309 "2009-11-10T15:28:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And now we get to it. “Your way of thinking” is the very thing that Rand (and really most rational hardworking people) are opposed to. Dictators and tyranical governments throughout history have attempted to convince their citizens that they are no more than agents of the State. Their labor should be for the good of the State and all it’s Citizens (Comrades, People, whathaveyou). All your possessions are yours only by the grace and the whim of the state. In what way is that not slavery? When you earned your money producing goods you depended on society through various ways: - you used your knowledge earned in schools - you used the public transportation system, if not just by driving on public roads - you used the protection of a public police system (and an army) - you used up environmental resources you very probably didn’t pay for, e.g. polluting air and water (hidden costs of production) - production, transport and pollution has negative effects on public health - … The very least you should do is to give back a part of these costs to society. You didn’t earn this money by yourself alone. Let’s make an experiment : we airlift a couple of entrepreneurs into the Sahara with no possibility to communicate or transport goods or capital. Let’s see how much they will produce. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/310 "2009-11-10T15:31:14Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > I guess if we are going to resort to namecalling as intelligent debate, socialism and communism are nothing but self-justifying idealogies for the lazy and incompetant to steal from the hard working and successful. You could, but you’d be wrong. There is nothing to ‘debate’ about Rand. She’s about as much a philosopher as L Ron Hubbard as has been amply demonstrated in this thread. And my description amply fits the followers of the two pseudo-philosophies as they comport themselves on this board. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/311 "2009-11-10T15:33:50Z")
Why is that someone criticizing Rand needs to be a communist? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/312 "2009-11-10T15:33:50Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why should I sacrifice myself for others? Yea - 'cos you’ve got yours. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/313 "2009-11-10T15:40:10Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I haven’t read all your posts, so have you defined exactly what you find immoral about her ideas? Can you quote something, in context, that you can objectively (pun intended) define as “immoral”? I’ve read all your posts but to save you the trouble of having to read mine, here are a few thoughts. I didn’t say I found her ideas to be immoral. I said (in response to someone asking why people were so down on Rand): “I supect that if immoral people used Dan Browns work to justify their immorality, people would have problems with Dan Brown as well even if Dan brown never said anything that was actually immoral.” If you meant to ask what immorality have other people used Rand’s philosophy to justify, then I guess I would point to the examples of my neighbor who argues that he shouldn’t have to pay real estate taxes because he sends his kids to private school. I guess I would point to everyone who uses Rand’s philosophy to justify whatever avarice they desired. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/314 "2009-11-10T15:42:26Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Has there every been a successful governmental structure that started from the axiom that property is theft? And by ‘successful’ I’m talking about a purely utilitarian measure - the greatest happiness for the greatest number of people. If there is, I’m not aware of it. Didn’t the American Indiands have a diffgerent concept of property rights? > [@](#): > > On the other hand, we have plenty of evidence that shows that societies which embrace individual rights, including the right to property, tend to be better than societies which have weaker protections of individual rights. In fact, everywhere you look you see the same pattern. Plot economic growth against size of government, and the pattern emerges that the countries with least intrusive government have the best economies. The US government is relatively unintrusive compared to Western European governments and yet the US doesn’t seem to be doing so hot. > [@](#): > > Socialist economies have not turned out so well. Are France and Germany socialist governments? > [@](#): > > The amazing thing is that, in the face of so many examples to the contrary, there are still people who feel that government solves problems better than does the market and that it’s a good thing for the state to limit the individual rights of the people. Perhaps its because there are examples on the other side as well. > [@](#): > > Without the right to property, everyone is a ward of the state. Everything we do is subject to the whim of the state. Without property rights, we are all chattel who live or die based on the decisions of our ruling classes. And if we were living in a society where we were actually in danger of abandoning the concept of property rights then I could see your point but we are living in a society where we are in danger of raising the top marginal tax rate from 35% to 39.6%. I guess my biggest problem with Rand is that so many people use her philosophy for the idea that we should get rid of taxation. > [@](#): > > The social contract says that you must respect the rights of others, but in return it says that others will respect your rights. We organize together for our mutual benefit as free, rational beings. And you don’t think the social contract says anything else? > [@](#): > > Any other philosophy is abhorrent to me. So you don’t think that members of society have any other duty to society other than to do their best to prosper? If I don’t particularly value national defense, is it immoral to tax me to pay for everyone else’s security? I think a lot of this comes down to taxes. People use Rand to argue that taxation is theft and I find that immoral. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/315 "2009-11-10T15:51:16Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > In what way is that not slavery? I didn’t think the previous poster was suggesting the cofiscation of all capital by the state but I may be wrong. If your premise is that any state demands on your proserty is slavery then I guess I would say that you have a very very broad definition of slavery. > [@](#): > > Why should I sacrifice myself for others? Which others should I sacrifice myself for? When would be enough? Should I be forced to sacrifice because you think it’s the “right thing to do”? Perhaps because we have an elected government and you can choose to participate in that government by voting or running for office. It is that government that chooses “how much is enough.” If you don’t like the system, you can do what Reardon did and leave all your worldly possession behind and drop out of society. Perhaps the world will beg for you to come back. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/316 "2009-11-10T15:53:00Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > Why is that someone criticizing Rand needs to be a communist? Because the people who like her work tend to see the world in absolutes. If you are not with us then you must be the polar opposite. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/317 "2009-11-10T16:26:07Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Maybe you have a unorthodox [definition](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/empathy) of what “[empathy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy)” is. > > In the links, “empathy” defined as, \*“identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.” > \*or as Wiki page puts it, _“the capability to share and understand another’s emotions and feelings”_ > > A person can certainly hold the view that denying “self-sacrifice” is compatible with “identifying with others’ thoughts or understanding others’ emotions”. You can hold both thoughts at the same time. Believing in self-sacrifice is not a prerequisite for empathy. > > What’s the confusion? Perhaps you meant to use a different word other than “empathy”? > > And I think you added more confusion with your use of the word “empathy”. Well put. There is a big difference between feeling empathy, helping someone out, and sacrificing oneself for another person. The whole bit about giving a beggar a dollar is just a red herring. It all depends on the details of who the beggar is, what your own circumstances are, and whether you’re even able to know what the guy is going to do with the dollar. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/318 "2009-11-10T16:28:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’ve read all your posts but to save you the trouble of having to read mine, here are a few thoughts. > > I didn’t say I found her ideas to be immoral. So, when you said: > [@](#): > > John Galt’s philosophy is immoral… You meant that John Galt has a different philosophy than Ayn Rand? Can you explain that difference? ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/319 "2009-11-10T16:31:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It all depends on the details of who the beggar is, what your own circumstances are, and whether you’re even able to know what the guy is going to do with the dollar. No it doesn’t, at least it does not depend on “what the guy is going to do with the dollar.” Giving a dollar to a beggar is not immoral even if you exactly know that the guy will spend the dollar on booze. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078/320 "2009-11-10T16:32:29Z")
> [@flonks](#): > > Will she make a difference between > i) “demanding” empathy > ii) finding people without empathy awkward, stupid, evil? > > Short, normally empathy is not asked for. Either you have it or you don’t. And if you don’t, you are a jerk. By the standards of most people. It’s funny how so many people criticize her for seeing everything in black and white and then criticize her for NOT seeing things in black and white. It all depends on the details of the person for whom we’re suppose to feel empathy. If I guy loses his home because his neighbor set it on fire, then of course you’d feel empathy. If he loses his home because he set it on fire himself, then not so much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-for-dummies/516078.md?page=17)