# Ayn Rand - liberal or conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639 "2012-01-15T22:50:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/21 "2012-01-17T20:58:18Z")
That’s OK, we didn’t think much of her, either. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/22 "2012-01-18T03:25:03Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > 1. “I am a capitalist like Rand.” > 2. “Capitalism is the most efficient way of allocating resources as long as sufficient regulations are in place.” Statement #2 indicates that statement #1 is total bullshit. Whatever you are, you are no “capitalist like Rand.” ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/23 "2012-01-18T03:32:20Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Rand liked Rand. She also liked those who liked Rand. Interesting. Would you have her \*\*\*not \*\*\*liking herself, or those who liked her? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/24 "2012-01-18T04:04:54Z")
All this talk about Rand transcending conservatism is nice, but the reality is that she endorsed every Republican Presidential nominee from Hoover through Wendell Wilkie to, yes, Richard Nixon - he of the wage-and-price controls, gas rationing, affirmative action, EPA, and sundry other free market-unfriendly policies. The lesser-of-two-evils alliance with Republicans makes her fallout with the libertarians over metaphysical grounding for politics all the more incomprehensible and really gives the lie to the notion of Ayn Rand as an uncompromising titan of principle regardless of consequences. It’s true that Ayn Rand was an unapologetic atheist and an intellectual (or, if you want to be critical, at least someone who viewed being an intellectual as a good thing) who derided the sort of populist appeal to folk belief that Republicans love to invoke. But other than that there really isn’t a whole lot of disagreement with the _stated_ ideals of the Republican Party. Obviously, the contest to see who can be more in line with capitalist economics ends once the primary does and Republicans look a lot like Democrats in office or worse when it comes to taxing and spending, and so on and so forth, but it’s no big surprise that a lot of conservatives have no trouble citing Rand when they are trying to paint their fantasy picture of themselves for the electorate. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/25 "2012-01-18T04:13:46Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > All this talk about Rand transcending conservatism is nice, but the reality is that she endorsed every Republican Presidential nominee from Hoover through Wendell Wilkie to, yes, Richard Nixon - he of the wage-and-price controls, gas rationing, affirmative action, EPA, and sundry other free market-unfriendly policies. The lesser-of-two-evils alliance with Republicans makes her fallout with the libertarians over metaphysical grounding for politics all the more incomprehensible and really gives the lie to the notion of Ayn Rand as an uncompromising titan of principle regardless of consequences. > > It’s true that Ayn Rand was an unapologetic atheist and an intellectual (or, if you want to be critical, at least someone who viewed being an intellectual as a good thing) who derided the sort of populist appeal to folk belief that Republicans love to invoke. But other than that there really isn’t a whole lot of disagreement with the _stated_ ideals of the Republican Party. Obviously, the contest to see who can be more in line with capitalist economics ends once the primary does and Republicans look a lot like Democrats in office or worse when it comes to taxing and spending, and so on and so forth, but it’s no big surprise that a lot of conservatives have no trouble citing Rand when they are trying to paint their fantasy picture of themselves for the electorate. However after the coming of Reagan, Rand and her Objectivists definitely broke with the GOP. Her successor, Leonard Peikoff even endorsed John Kerry in 2004. On the other hand they think both parties are not hard enough on the Islamists by going to war against Iran rather than Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/26 "2012-01-18T05:36:19Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Yeah without the enlightened part. > > Ayn Rand was a nutjob who viewed the entire world through the lens of a poor little rich girl who had everything taken away by the communists. What? Are you claiming that what she advocate in her books and interviews she really didn’t advocate? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/27 "2012-01-18T11:12:47Z")
Wasn’t she sort of both illiberal, and against traditional authority? Thus neither liberal nor conservative. Also immoderate. Rand was Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/28 "2012-01-18T13:03:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > On the other hand they think both parties are not hard enough on the Islamists by going to war against Iran rather than Iraq. Why would an Objectivist want America to go to war with a country it had not been attacked by? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/29 "2012-01-18T15:34:53Z")
Why do people consider her a “sociopath”? I mean other than that they disagree with her philosophy? Other than having read Atlas Shrugged, I’m not an expert on Rand and her philosophy. But from what I gather, her philosophy is not “look out for number one and everyone else can go fuck themselves.” The main tenet of her philosophy, as it applies to business, is mostly a laissez faire form of capitalism. That government, when allowed to regulate business, will often legislate based on political convenience and personal gain. Even when those regulations are actually intended to help society. For example, legislation to enforce a standard of rail construction. While intended to establish a minimum level of safety, such a regulation could be used to also preserve personal business interests by blocking competition from manufactuers who are not from the same state as the legislators constituents. In fact, the book describes how the main character is prevented from selling his superior grade of steel because it would hurt the business interests of the establishment. Many left-wing types assume this means that she would support all business, including Enron, Madoff, and the recent mortgage backed securites fiasco. That is not the case. And in fact would consider those sort of people “looters” and “moochers”, manipulating financial laws or commiting outright theft or fraud in order to fatten theor own pockets. One of the highest offenses according to Rand. She is also critical of the philosophy that people with wealth are obligated to help those without. And Rand would also be completely against bailouts. Victims of Enron, Madoff, and so out would have been expected to hedge their bets against such a failure, not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Yeah, it sucks they lost their job, but if they were that good, they should be able to find or create new ones soon enough. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/30 "2012-01-18T15:49:12Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > However after the coming of Reagan, Rand and her Objectivists definitely broke with the GOP. “The coming of Reagan”? Was there some sort of heavenly choir involved? Anyhoo, Rand was dead by '82, so whatever her followers did after she died, the only reason Rand herself “broke with the GOP” is because she had gone to the Divine Treasury, and its hard to endorse a candidate postmortem. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/31 "2012-01-18T17:30:58Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why do people consider her a “sociopath”? I mean other than that they disagree with her philosophy? I wasn’t going to go there, but what the hell. Here’s a link to wikipedia (cached) on [Antisocial Personality Disorder (the technical term for sociopathy):](http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=antisocial+personality+disorder&fr=my-myy-s&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=antisocial+personality+disorder&d=4828411249099398&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=f44b97e9,f9fa49a3&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=AjUewpt0Q76Lj340frS9Mw--) > [@](#): > > The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM IV-TR), defines antisocial personality disorder (in Axis II Cluster B) as: > A) There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following: > > 1. failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest; > > 2. deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure; > > 3. impulsiveness or failure to plan ahead; > > 4. irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults; > > 5. reckless disregard for safety of self or others; > > 6. consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations; > > 7. lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another; Numbers added by me for ease of reference. If you stretched it, you might hit her with #2 and #7, but that would still be a stretch. I can’s see where she would meet the clinical definition. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/32 "2012-01-18T18:17:06Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Interesting. Would you have her \*\*\*not \*\*\*liking herself, or those who liked her? Hey, it worked for Wittgenstein. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/33 "2012-01-18T18:50:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I wasn’t going to go there, but what the hell. Here’s a link to wikipedia (cached) on [Antisocial Personality Disorder (the technical term for sociopathy):](http://74.6.117.48/search/srpcache?ei=UTF-8&p=antisocial+personality+disorder&fr=my-myy-s&u=http://cc.bingj.com/cache.aspx?q=antisocial+personality+disorder&d=4828411249099398&mkt=en-US&setlang=en-US&w=f44b97e9,f9fa49a3&icp=1&.intl=us&sig=AjUewpt0Q76Lj340frS9Mw--) > Numbers added by me for ease of reference. > > If you stretched it, you might hit her with #2 and #7, but that would still be a stretch. > > I can’s see where she would meet the clinical definition. At least [TVTropes is still up:](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodPersonalityDisorders) > [@](#): > > **Antisocial Personality Disorder** > > Same as the narcissist except they won’t take it personally if you kick them out. The only reason they’ll stay in somebody’s life is because that person is gullible and there’s no need to reinvent the wheel. When in doubt narcissists want others to take care of their needs and wants. Antisocials will take what they need or want. They have a reputation for rationalizing acts most would consider dog kicking, in the processing shaming their accuser for standing up for themselves. > > Humans on average lean towards conservatism due to biological urges that make it as natural as breathing or having sex. People with antisocial personality disorder don’t have these urges or they exist in diminished capacity. So if you want these individuals to be prosocial the behavior will have to be learned which becomes harder to teach as the antisocial individual grows older. > > Antisocial behavior is theorized to be nature’s defense against leaders who don’t have our best interests in mind, Obstructive Bureaucrats, and other situations where the disadvantages of being part of a group outweigh the benefits. When someone has a habit of obviously violating other people’s right and uses this as an excuse, they are said to have antisocial personality disorder. People with an antisocial style are action and adventure seekers or artists and scientists who have no qualms of violating established rules or disproving widely held theories. Precursors include Theophastrus’s The Unscrupulous Man, Philippe Pinel’s moral insanity, psychopathy, and sociopathy. The latter two of which some professionals believe we were a bit hasty in tossing the labels aside. > > Despite the popular image of the antisocial as always a criminal, the antisocial can be contrasted against most criminals, who will usually take precautions against getting caught. > > Anti-social behavior is commonly seen during the manic episodes of Bipolar Disorder. However, during a manic episode, antisocial behavior is usually directed towards some goal, like stealing money to start a new company. Like the anti-social personality, a person in a manic mood is likely to act in impulsive and reckless ways like speeding down the highway, or abusing drugs. In both disorders, individuals often make rash decisions on the spur of the moment with little consideration of the consequences. Both individuals are likely to have a Hair-Trigger Temper. However, in Bipolar Disorder, this behavior stops when a person returns to a normal mood, or a depressed mood, and the person experiences genuine remorse or regret. Still, telling the difference between Bipolar Disorder presenting with hypomania and an Anti-Social Personality can be tricky, even for an experienced psychiatrist especially when information on a persons history is unavailable. > > Also sometimes known as the Psychopathic or Sociopathic Personality. > > See also Lack of Empathy and The Sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![robinson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/848f3c/32.png) [@robinson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robinson)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/34 "2012-01-18T18:56:01Z")
The one-dimensional political spectrum is SO limiting. IMHO (I love that phrase) she is a neo-feudalist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/35 "2012-01-18T18:57:34Z")
> [@robinson](#): > > The one-dimensional political spectrum is SO limiting. IMHO (I love that phrase) she is a neo-feudalist. Since this is GD and not IMHO, can you tell us why you think that? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/36 "2012-01-18T19:10:16Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why would an Objectivist want America to go to war with a country it had not been attacked by? Why wouldn’t they? Rand advocated an invasion of the USSR for her whole life. There certainly is an article on Peikoff’s website advocating a pre-emptive war with Iran (and advocating voting for John Kerry in 2004 on the basis of Peikoff’s belief that he would be more likely than Bush to start one). I am not aware of “offensive wars are bad” being something that Ayn Rand or any other prominent leader of the “Objectivist movement” ever said. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/37 "2012-01-18T19:19:49Z")
By the way, the vitriol and the stupid “sociopath” comments just make me want to recap what I think the obsession with Ayn Rand by, not the right, but the left, is all about. Note that I’m not an Objectivist or a libertarian by any stretch of the imagination, but I do define my core political orientation as “intolerant of bullshit” and I see a lot of it whenever Ayn Rand comes up: Ayn Rand is not a significant figure in American politics. She will, once in a blue moon, get mentioned in a Republican primary context, by people who surely haven’t read anything she wrote and would have to distance themselves from her atheism and other beliefs if they ever seriously invoked her. On the whole, Objectivism is a movement with a few thousand self-declared followers and maybe a few hundred or less who actually live by all its tenets. In terms of both stated and actual followers, it has far less influence on American society than Bahai, or fruitarianism, or JFK conspiracy theories do, and we’re not constantly analyzing how those belief systems influence any major political party. The reason that the left cannot stop bringing up Ayn Rand is because she’s an easy target. Attacking people who say “the free market has proven to be the best overall approach historically, though of course there is room for a reasonable degree of taxation and public services” is hard. Attacking people whose argument is “the top marginal tax rate should be 33% and not 35%” is hard. Attacking people who say “public schools would be better if teachers unions’ had less power than they currently do” is hard. Comprehending and responding to these positions requires some sort of actual understanding, some nuance, and some ability to actually put forth an argument as to why one’s opinion on the specific issue at hand. But responding to any suggestion of lowering taxes or reducing government control of anything with “oh, you must be one of those Ayn Rand followers. What a sociopathic cunt she was! Haha I bet she had sand in her vagina!” is really, really easy. Reducing any slightly pro-market argument to this boogeyman of Objectivism and then attacking some person who has been dead for thirty years with childish insults is really, really easy. Why learn anything about the particulars of the Wisconsin public employees union situation when you can just continually discuss someone who wrote a bad novel in 1957? So, having the ghost of Ayn Rand around is great for the left. Since she has nearly no followers, it’s basically a wash for the right–they’re more interested in beating their gay children with Bibles than propping open the door with Atlas Shrugged. Without this straw man, it would be a lot more difficult to be a left-winger on the Internet, because people would have to engage with the actual ideas and policies being proposed instead of reducing everything to “exactly what the Democrats proposed v. Mad Max like anarcho-capitalist wasteland.” ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/38 "2012-01-18T19:34:13Z")
Can anyone spot a difference between libertarianism and objectivism, other than the personality of Rand herself? ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/39 "2012-01-18T19:38:35Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Why wouldn’t they? Rand advocated an invasion of the USSR for her whole life. T. How would an Objectivist army even work? Having a military regiment of people committed to selfishly pursuing their own happiness seems like its going to maybe not be the worlds most disciplined force. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/40 "2012-01-18T19:52:50Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > Can anyone spot a difference between libertarianism and objectivism, other than the personality of Rand herself? There is no libertarian metaphysics, epistemology, ethics or esthetics. There is only libertarian politics. > [@Simplicio](#): > > How would an Objectivist army even work? Having a military regiment of people committed to selfishly pursuing their own happiness seems like its going to maybe not be the worlds most disciplined force. You’re confusing happiness with rational self-interest. Near the end of _Atlas Shrugged_ and, somewhat, \*The Fountainhead, \*there were protagonists risking their lives for their principles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639.md?page=3)