# Ayn Rand - liberal or conservative? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 15, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639 "2012-01-15T22:50:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/61 "2012-01-20T21:56:55Z")
While obviously descriptions of political philosophies are as complex as you want to make them but if you are going to boil them down to a single distinction then the left vs right line is by far the most significant, I would say. The problem is that people think it’s arbitrary and they don’t realize what it means. At it’s core it’s about the belief in the value and ability of regular people. If you think regular people are generally able and trustworthy you are somewhere on the left and if you don’t you are somewhere on the right. What could be more fundamental in a (human) philosophy than it’s view of human nature? I know little about Rand but someone who does could apply this standard to her and answer the OP’s question. As for libertarianism, it’s on the left. It trusts people to make their own way. Individual American libertarians seem to tend to lean either Democratic or Republican based on whether they value freedom on social issues or economic issues more. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/62 "2012-01-21T21:24:40Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Why do people consider her a “sociopath”? I mean other than that they disagree with her philosophy? > > Other than having read Atlas Shrugged, I’m not an expert on Rand and her philosophy. But from what I gather, her philosophy is not “look out for number one and everyone else can go fuck themselves.” > > The main tenet of her philosophy, as it applies to business, is mostly a laissez faire form of capitalism. That government, when allowed to regulate business, will often legislate based on political convenience and personal gain. Even when those regulations are actually intended to help society. For example, legislation to enforce a standard of rail construction. While intended to establish a minimum level of safety, such a regulation could be used to also preserve personal business interests by blocking competition from manufactuers who are not from the same state as the legislators constituents. In fact, the book describes how the main character is prevented from selling his superior grade of steel because it would hurt the business interests of the establishment. > > Many left-wing types assume this means that she would support all business, including Enron, Madoff, and the recent mortgage backed securites fiasco. That is not the case. And in fact would consider those sort of people “looters” and “moochers”, manipulating financial laws or commiting outright theft or fraud in order to fatten theor own pockets. One of the highest offenses according to Rand. > > She is also critical of the philosophy that people with wealth are obligated to help those without. And Rand would also be completely against bailouts. Victims of Enron, Madoff, and so out would have been expected to hedge their bets against such a failure, not keeping all their eggs in one basket. Yeah, it sucks they lost their job, but if they were that good, they should be able to find or create new ones soon enough. One reason: > **[Did Ayn Rand idolize a serial killer?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=604618)** > > Someone linked me to this article today, and it makes for a horrifying read. In short, it’s about a sociopath from the early 20th century who, among other things, kidnapped a banker’s daughter, held her for ransom, murdered her, dismembered her,... ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/63 "2012-01-21T21:38:31Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > One reason: > [Did Ayn Rand idolize a serial killer? - Great Debates - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=604618) I listed the clinical criteria earlier. She doesn’t meet them, and that thread isn’t any type of proof, either. ---
**Author:** ![InterestedObserver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@InterestedObserver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InterestedObserver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/64 "2012-01-21T22:35:15Z")
I wasn’t presenting it as “proof” of anything. I was responding to the question WHY do some consider her a sociopath. The topic of the thread I linked to is the most commonly cited reason I’ve heard from those who DO consider her one. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/65 "2012-01-21T23:21:39Z")
> [@InterestedObserver](#): > > I wasn’t presenting it as “proof” of anything. I was responding to the question WHY do some consider her a sociopath. > > The topic of the thread I linked to is the most commonly cited reason I’ve heard from those who DO consider her one. The “people” he was referring to were posters in this thread. If that’s the reason, then those “people” are wrong. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/66 "2012-01-22T01:55:57Z")
It’s entirely possible to admire certain qualities about a person, while being revolted by other qualities. People do it every day. And if someone asks you what you admire about the person, you’ll list his admirable qualities. It’s quite a logical leap to conclude you admire the other qualities as well. There is no way that Ayn Rand was a sociopath. Yes, she challenged many values of society, but not out of hatred for humanity. Rather, she wanted humanity to be free of its restraints (like religion), and for people to learn how to be rational and productive and free. That is not what a sociopath wants. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/67 "2012-01-22T04:31:38Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Statement #2 indicates that statement #1 is total bullshit. Whatever you are, you are no “capitalist like Rand.” Absurd. Ayn Rand did not object to regulations (unlike Libertarians). One may be a capitalist and believe it is efficient for allocating resources simultaneously. To be correct you would have to parse the word “like” into a contortion. You don’t know enough about her and my views to do such. As far as the differences in Objectivism and the LP - that would be one. Capitalists like regulations since they help preserve capital. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/68 "2012-01-22T05:12:21Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > Absurd. > > Ayn Rand did not object to regulations (unlike Libertarians). One may be a capitalist and believe it is efficient for allocating resources simultaneously. Can we have a cite about Rand’s not objecting to regulations? > [@](#): > > To be correct you would have to parse the word “like” into a contortion. You don’t know enough about her and my views to do such. You’re probably too new to know this, but **panache45** actually did know Rand personally. You didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/69 "2012-01-22T05:16:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > You’re probably too new to know this, but **panache45** actually did know Rand personally. You didn’t. I suspected that he/she was a high-level Objectivist. That is why I put the “and” in there. I know more about Rand than he/she knows about me. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/70 "2012-01-22T05:17:46Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > I suspected that he/she was a high-level Objectivist. That is why I put the “and” in there. A “high-level” Objectivist? > [@](#): > > I know more about Rand than he/she knows about me. Then you’ll have no trouble with those cites I requested, right? ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/71 "2012-01-22T05:30:46Z")
I don’t claim to be an Objectivist, merely a capitalist who has read some Rand. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/72 "2012-01-22T05:35:46Z")
> [@Linden\_Arden](#): > > I don’t claim to be an Objectivist, merely a capitalist who has read some Rand. I don’t care what you claim to be or don’t claim to be. I’m just interested in the cite I requested. Where is it? ---
**Author:** ![Linden\_Arden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/53a042/32.png) [@Linden\_Arden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linden_Arden)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/73 "2012-01-22T06:02:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t care what you claim to be or don’t claim to be. I’m just interested in the cite I requested. Where is it? I don’t need a cite, you do. Capitalism and individual liberty cannot exist without law. I am not talking about a bureaucracy. If one is a capitalist they also honor law and private property. Laws are regulations. One cannot espouse capitalism and chaos together. “A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control—i.e., under objectively defined laws.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/74 "2012-01-22T06:18:20Z")
OK. You don’t have a cite. I didn’t think you did. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639/75 "2012-01-22T14:11:33Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > It’s entirely possible to admire certain qualities about a person, while being revolted by other qualities. People do it every day. And if someone asks you what you admire about the person, you’ll list his admirable qualities. It’s quite a logical leap to conclude you admire the other qualities as well. > > There is no way that Ayn Rand was a sociopath. Yes, she challenged many values of society, but not out of hatred for humanity. Rather, she wanted humanity to be free of its restraints (like religion), and for people to learn how to be rational and productive and free. The thing is, modern conservatives/libertarians disregard the putative wishes of Rand and/or the onetime cult, that Objectivism apply to _everything_, and indeed take your much more reasonable (heh) approach of “unbundling” the person, the theories and the applications. Plus in the case of many of the conservatives they may not have really read much by her beside the two big novels, and precious little \*about \*her, so it may not even register. Unfortunately Rand DID allow a cult to arise, as locked in to the notion that she had found THE answer and that the “prophet” was endowed with infallibility not just on the subject at hand but on matters of life in general, as any founders of a religion. Why did she not stop that? Did she think that was the rational, right thing to do? Not sociopathic, then, but narcissistic, maybe? Her use of the justification of “rationality” for a lot of the non-admirable actions (e.g. Branden) or even trifling things suggests to me that she welcomed or expected that her followers buy into her position on anything and _everything_ as a single indivisible package, so opponents feel in turn justified to return the favor in kind (fairly or unfairly). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rand-liberal-or-conservative/609639.md?page=3)