# Ayn Rand's philosophy on the middle and working classes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381 "2009-02-11T16:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/181 "2009-02-13T18:16:57Z")
[QUOTE=martu] For Rand it is not where you come from, indeed how could that ever stop one of her ubermensch?, but where you are. So some people, those at the bottom of the ladder, are worth nothing more than what they can produce for those at the top. [/QUOTE] And you base that one what, exactly? What part of AS (or any of her other books) are you basing this on…because it seems to me you are completely making this statement up out of whole cloth. For example, Galt (and most of Galt’s followers) work as menials…short order cooks, rail road workers, steel workers, etc etc. Roark does a stint as a quarry worker when he can’t find any work as an architect, and has every intention of continuing that job until he gets a break. > [@](#): > > Oh but it’s Ok they should be happy with their lot and take pride in their menial daily tasks… Are you saying that people shouldn’t be happy in their work or take pride in doing it well? What exactly ARE you saying here? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/182 "2009-02-13T18:18:24Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > What I think you are saying is that humans can transcend their more basic instincts from time to time using logic and reason. On that we agree. We CERTAINLY DO NOT AGREE. Man has no instincts, except maybe to cry. Man only has reason to survive. Everything man does is learned behavior. Everything a wolf does is instinct. Do you think we are animals? We are humans. We have the ability to reason. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/183 "2009-02-13T19:25:43Z")
Do you believe, then, in a separate creation of the human species, Adam and Eve? Or can you point out for us where, precisely, the line of primates that resulted in Homo Sap transcended its animal origins? Were the Neandertals animals, or people? Human beings in “the wild” live invariably in collective units: family, tribes, clans, etc. Is this the result of reason? Or instinct? Or do we simply like having others to pal around with? Why are we not solitary, like the orangutan? That seems an equally “rational” approach, why is it absent? ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/184 "2009-02-13T19:32:04Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > We CERTAINLY DO NOT AGREE. > > Man has no instincts, except maybe to cry. Man only has reason to survive. Everything man does is learned behavior. Everything a wolf does is instinct. > > Do you think we are animals? We are humans. We have the ability to reason. I certainly like banging my girlfriend, but my sexual desire isn’t an instinct? There isn’t anything particularly reasonable about having sex with someone who can’t get pregnant because she is on birth control. If you get to set the definitions then of course you’re right. You are like a Christian citing the Bible to prove that Christianity is correct. Come back with some sort of scientifically based evidence for any of your assertions and I’ll continue this debate, but until then, peace out. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/185 "2009-02-13T19:41:10Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Can you define the terms “collectivist” and “collective” as used above? Thanks. I have every confidence in the extent and capacity of your vocabulary. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/186 "2009-02-13T19:48:37Z")
Actually I couldn’t resist tearing your argument to shreds just a bit more. > [@Madgolf](#): > > We CERTAINLY DO NOT AGREE. > > Everything a wolf does is instinct. You might want to google up this guy Pavlov and his dogs. Or better yet, I’ll post a video of all the tricks my dog has learned. > [@](#): > > Do you think we are animals? We are humans. Well if you define animals as organisims that aren’t human, then no, we aren’t animals. However, if you consider that humans share 99% of their DNA with chimps, only recently (evolutionarily speaking) emerged as a seperate species, and only even more recently stoped living in small hunter gater groups (hell, we might even call them packs), then the picture becomes much more cloudy. Which goes back to my original point, the difference between man and wolves or monkeys is one of degree not kind. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/187 "2009-02-13T20:29:17Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > We CERTAINLY DO NOT AGREE. > > Man has no instincts, except maybe to cry. Man only has reason to survive. Everything man does is learned behavior. Everything a wolf does is instinct. That’s just ridiculous; human beings have dozens of instincts. Jesus, man, read a Psych 101 text. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/188 "2009-02-13T20:40:49Z")
> [@Duke](#): > > Even if Galt was undoubtedly a member of the working class, though, it points to a marked inconsistency in Rand’s arguments, as **Kimstu** earlier pointed out. Outside of the famous speech, Rand did indeed maintain meritocratic arguments. Then comes the speech, where all of that appears to go out the window. Rather than showing an inconsistency in Rand’s arguments, why does this not show that your interpretation of the speech is incorrect? Also, you seem to be basing all this on the one part of the speech you quoted. Don’t you think it is more likely that you are misinterpreting that one part than that Rand is inconsistent in her philosophy? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/189 "2009-02-13T20:48:50Z")
[QUOTE=RickJay] That’s just ridiculous; human beings have dozens of instincts. Jesus, man, read a Psych 101 text. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure what this has to do with the book, but when I took anthropology in college (granted, it wasn’t Psych 101), I was told humans have no real instincts and that much of what people consider to be ‘instinct’ is actually reflex. Now, I understand that this is not a consensus view, but I don’t know of anyone who is saying that humans have dozens of instincts. I’m not being snarky here, but could you name a few human instincts? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/190 "2009-02-13T22:43:09Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Our rational thought is what makes us humans and yet there is a certain segment of the global population that would prefer we did not use rational thought. They have gone as far as to try to teach us rational thought is an illusion. > > Watch some old Nazi propaganda films and you will see that Nazi soldiers were taught to ignore rational thought in favor of behaving according to their feelings and emotional impulses. Attention, SDMB Posters, would Mr. Godwin please report to the Great Debates Forum? Once again, would Mr. Godwin please report to the Great Debates forum at this time? > [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > A word of advice to the o.p.: read _The Fountainhead_, which is just as pedantic and didactic but a fuck of a lot shorter and less painful. And a wee more entertaining-even if the relationship between Hank and Dominique was insanely fucked up. > [@](#): > > I’d rather read some of those atrocious _Star Wars_ franchise novels than another Ayn Rand book again. > > Stranger Hey now-some of those are pretty damned good-the _X-Wing_ books, for example! 😃 If anything, I’d take Yoda’s teaching’s over Rand’s. **xtisme** -to attempt to feed myself when I’m hungry, to pee or poop when I need to, to flinch away from something that pains me, etc. I don’t need to be taught that if I put my hand on a hot stove I will burn it. If I do so, it will hurt like all fucking hell, and I will automatically scream and jerk away from it. Now, most of the time, one’s parents will warn a child-“don’t touch!”, but avoiding pain is CERTAINLY an instinct. And one point that keeps escaping the Randites-ever realize WHY we ended up with those government regulations in the first place? In _Atlas_, it seems they were set up just for shits and giggles-that Rand doesn’t seem to be capable of BELIEVING that people can be compassionate, to care about society in general. THAT was one of the impressions I came away with. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/191 "2009-02-13T22:53:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh? Well, what about Christians I have never seen a Christian lie about Ayn Rand, unless that christian was a left-wing collectivist. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/192 "2009-02-13T22:56:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That’s just ridiculous; human beings have dozens of instincts. Jesus, man, read a Psych 101 text. Humans are not born with instincts, except possibly to cry. Humans have to learn to survive by using reason. What instincts do you have? I have none. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/193 "2009-02-13T23:10:18Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Humans are not born with instincts, except possibly to cry. Suckling’s learned now, is it? I certainly don’t recall teaching my daughter to suckle. So there’s two instincts. And of course, there’s the virtually endless list of instinctive drives and behaviours we have. Sexual attraction isn’t learned. A list of instintive tendencies just revolving around sex and dating would be hundred of lines long. > [@](#): > > Humans have to learn to survive by using reason. Then how are there any humans in the world? The first humans shouldn’t have been able to survive, since they wouldn’t have had anyone to learn from. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/194 "2009-02-13T23:14:53Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Humans are not born with instincts, except possibly to cry. > > Humans have to learn to survive by using reason. > > What instincts do you have? I have none. So again, I need to be taught that if something hurts, I should move away from it? Or do I do that _instinctively_? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/195 "2009-02-13T23:51:59Z")
Wait…what? [QUOTE=Guinastasia] xtisme-to attempt to feed myself when I’m hungry, to pee or poop when I need to, to flinch away from something that pains me, etc. I don’t need to be taught that if I put my hand on a hot stove I will burn it. If I do so, it will hurt like all fucking hell, and I will automatically scream and jerk away from it. Now, most of the time, one’s parents will warn a child-“don’t touch!”, but avoiding pain is CERTAINLY an instinct. [/QUOTE] Are you claiming that bodily functions are instinctive behavior? Are you claiming that a child instinctively knows a stove (or fire) is hot…that this doesn’t need to be taught (even if ‘taught’ simply means 'gets burned and figures out that pain hurts)?? One of us is operating under a shaky definition of what the word ‘instinct’ means. My understanding of instinctive behavior is ‘If I ruffle my feathers THIS way then you move THAT way, then I shift to the left and you shift to the right…and then we get to fuck!’. In other words it’s a programmed sequence of cues and counter cues, sort of like a dance. Pain avoidance is, afaik, a reflex movement. Same with hunger and the need to pee or poo, as you put it (loved that btw). I know this is a hijack of the thread but I’m really curious here. Either my understanding of what an instinctive behavior is off (or the definition changed since I was in college…which, admittedly, was a pretty long time ago) or, as Inigo Montoya would say ‘that word dinna mean what you thin it means’. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/196 "2009-02-13T23:56:03Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So again, I need to be taught that if something hurts, I should move away from it? > > Or do I do that _instinctively_? Reflexively. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2009, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/197 "2009-02-13T23:57:04Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Are you claiming that bodily functions are instinctive behavior? Autonomic behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/198 "2009-02-14T00:00:18Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Suckling’s learned now, is it? I certainly don’t recall teaching my daughter to suckle. Congratulations for having a genius kid. Most babies spit up their first dozen gobs forced down their throat until they learn how to swallow properly. Many mothers are not at all patient waiting for the baby to learn how to suckle properly and many babies lose a LOT of weight, which prompts the hospital to send in a lactation consultant to instruct the mother and child and sometimes go as far as IV feeding. But forcing a bottle down the baby’s throat usually does the trick. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/199 "2009-02-14T00:05:15Z")
I think suckling is a reflexive behavior…like getting hit on the knee with a hammer or getting ‘goose flesh’ when you are cold. I can’t think of anything that all humans do the same that doesn’t have to be taught. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dog80](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@Dog80](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dog80)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/200 "2009-02-14T00:44:47Z")
Sorry, but I am lost. How are animal instincts relevant with Ayn Rand philosophy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=11)