# Ayn Rand's philosophy on the middle and working classes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381 "2009-02-11T16:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/241 "2009-02-14T21:38:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Nothing in the cite you offered supports this claim. > **[Survey of lifetime readers | Open Library](https://openlibrary.org/b/OL1351388M)** > > Survey of lifetime readers by , 1990, Information Analysis Systems edition, in English Survey of lifetime readers Published in 1990, Information Analysis Systems (Mansfield Center, CT) Data comes from Amazon, Library of Congress, and users like you. Contributions: Welch, Alicia J., 1946-, Center for the Book., Book-of-the-Month Club., Information analysis Systems. By statement: prepared for the Library of Congress, Center for the Book and Book of the Month Club ; project director, Alicia J. Welch ; Information Analysis Systems Corp. Language: English Pagination: 1 v. (various pagings) ; LCCN: 92241465 Dewey: 028/.9/0973021 LC: Z1003.2 .S87 1990 Subject: Books and reading — United States — Statistics. > **[Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22survey+of+lifetime+readers%22+%22information+analysis%22)** I hope that is enough cite for you. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/242 "2009-02-14T21:39:52Z")
Here’s a discussion of that alleged survey of readers: [http://www.violetbooks.com/aynrand.html](http://www.violetbooks.com/aynrand.html) > [@](#): > > This notion originated initially with the Book of the Month Club advertising department. In 1991, the 2,000 forms labeled “Survey of Lifetime Reading Habits” were sent to Book of the Month Club readers in a bizarre scam that hornswoggled the Library of Congress in promoting the Book Club. The Library of Congress fit it into their reading promotion project but this was a survey of nothing but the effectiveness of Book of the Month Club’s adveritising. This the top ten books included similar offerings from the Book Club come-on-attractions leaflet, Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique, Scott Peck’s The Road Less Travelled, & Gail Sheedy’s Passages. Truly a list of immortal classics. > > […] > > This Book of the Month Club promotion mailed out in cooperation with the Library of Congress reading promotion program not surprisingly established that Book of the Month Club titles were very significant to Book Club customers, most especially the few titles listed on the introductory offer form. Among which Ayn Rand’s Atlas Shrugged placed #2, after the Bible. I tend to agree with **elucidator** - this is a bit of fiction, which is unsurprising, since one can hardly imagine what _Atlas Shrugged_ is supposed to have influenced. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/243 "2009-02-14T21:50:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a discussion of that alleged survey alleged? > **[EBSCO Locate](https://search.catalog.loc.gov/search?option=lccn&query=92241465)** > > EBSCO Locate The government is now in on the scam? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/244 "2009-02-14T22:12:42Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > alleged? > > [http://lccn.loc.gov/92241465](http://lccn.loc.gov/92241465) > > The government is now in on the scam? The Library of Congress reportedly engaged in promoting the survey. Is this equivalent to the government being in on the scam? If you like, but it seems to me that: 1. The details of this “survey” seem elusive, and when I hear about a survey, I kind of want to know how many people were surveyed, who they were and how their responses were recorded. 2. The idea that _Atlas Shrugged_ influenced any meaningful number of people is laughable on its face. It’s a clownish joke of a book that even those who are positively disposed towards Ayn Rand don’t recommend to other people. Do you imagine that there are many “Objectivists” running around out there? I would wager that more people have read a Calvin and Hobbes anthology than have even heard of Atlas Shrugged. In terms of influencing readers, my fear would be that it influenced more people to never read a book again than to become objectivists. ETA: I must admit that I owned a hardcover version of the book. I uncritically accepted that I would, or should, like Ayn Rand because I was, and am still, a huge Rush fan, and 2112 was based on Anthem. I thus purchased the book, and had it sitting around until only this past summer. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/245 "2009-02-14T22:52:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > T I would wager that more people have read a Calvin and Hobbes anthology than have even heard of Atlas Shrugged. [http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16273/ref=pd\_zg\_hrsr\_b\_1\_4\_last](http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16273/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last) Shrugged is currently #2 in Sci-Fi Adventure and an overall sales rank of 447 out of millions of books. Hobbes Anthology is currently 3,976 out of millions of books. Shrugged came out a long time ago. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/246 "2009-02-14T22:52:26Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > [Survey of lifetime readers | Open Library](http://openlibrary.org/b/OL1351388M) > > Survey of lifetime readers > Published in 1990, Information Analysis Systems (Mansfield Center, CT) > > Data comes from Amazon, Library of Congress, and users like you… (Emphasis derisively added) > **[Amazon (company)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon.com)** > > Amazon.com, Inc. (doing business as Amazon)\[a\] is an American multinational technology company engaged in e-commerce, cloud computing, online advertising, digital streaming, and artificial intelligence. Founded in 1994 by Jeff Bezos in Bellevue, Washington, the company originally started as an online marketplace for books but gradually expanded its offerings to include a wide range of product categories, referred to as "The Everything Store". Amazon has been described as a Big Tech co It is m... > [@](#): > > …Jeff Bezos founded [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), Inc. in 1994 and launched it online in 1995… See the problem? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/247 "2009-02-14T22:54:08Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > … because I was, and am still, a huge Rush fan… God, I hope you’re talking about the rock band… ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/248 "2009-02-14T23:39:48Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > [Amazon Best Sellers: Best Science Fiction Adventures](http://www.amazon.com/gp/bestsellers/books/16273/ref=pd_zg_hrsr_b_1_4_last) > > Shrugged is currently #2 in Sci-Fi Adventure and an overall sales rank of 447 out of millions of books. > > Hobbes Anthology is currently 3,976 out of millions of books. > > Shrugged came out a long time ago. Wow! It’s apparently selling just behind “World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War.” Does that make “World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War” second to the Bible in terms of influence? You got me curious with all of your list-checking-as-empirical-evidence. So I started checking lists myself. [Top ten best selling books all time?](http://home.comcast.net/~antaylor1/bestsellingbooks.html) Atlas Shrugged? Not there. Maybe it just missed.[Top **fifteen** best selling books?](http://www.impactlab.com/2007/05/23/top-15-all-time-best-selling-books/) No, not there either. What gives? How about:[Wikipedia’s list of all time best selling books?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_books)No, not there! Sheesh. Maybe people just aren’t buying it, but are loaning it to others. How about: [Guardian’s list of 100 best all time books?](http://www.listsofbests.com/list/21) [modern library’s 100 best books](http://www.bookspot.com/listmodern100.htm) [Checkmark books 100 best novels?](http://www.adherents.com/people/100_novel.html) [Time magazine 100 best?](http://www.time.com/time/2005/100books/the_complete_list.html) [Easton press’ 100 best?](http://www.listsofbests.com/list/5883?page=2) Not there on any of them? Hmmm. How could the second most influential book of all time, still selling like hotcakes on [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com), not be found on lists of best selling or best books of all time? Does A=A or not? ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/249 "2009-02-14T23:49:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > So I started checking lists myself. It is #447 all time at Amazon. I posted that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/250 "2009-02-14T23:51:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Wow! It’s apparently selling just behind “World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War.” Does that make “World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War” second to the Bible in terms of influence? No. I don’t understand why you would ask that question. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/251 "2009-02-15T00:00:23Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > It is #447 all time at Amazon. > > I posted that fact. Unfortunately, since you posted that fact, it has become [#473](http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugged-Ayn-Rand/dp/0451191145/ref=pd_ts_b_2?ie=UTF8&s=books) all time. Sorry to tell you. I guess A=B, or A = A - 26. That puts it 472 positions behind the all time best selling book… [“The Shack”!](http://www.amazon.com/Shack-William-P-Young/dp/0964729237/ref=pd_ts_b_1?ie=UTF8&s=books)The what, you ask? _The Shack_ by William P. Young. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/252 "2009-02-15T00:01:55Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > No. > > I don’t understand why you would ask that question. I asked that to point out the sheer foolishness of citing Amazon sales figures and relying on a phony survey as support for your “argument,” whatever that might be. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/253 "2009-02-15T00:08:14Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > I asked that to point out the sheer foolishness of citing Amazon sales figures and relying on a phony survey as support for your “argument,” whatever that might be. Someone wagered that more people read(edit) Calvin and Hobbes Anthology than even heard of Shrugged. My argument was that poster was very wrong. Then you started posting things. I still don’t understand what you are getting on about. Maybe you should follow the thread and see what I was responding to before you start using the word “foolishness”. That word is not very nice. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/254 "2009-02-15T00:13:03Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Someone wagered that more people bought Calvin and Hobbes Anthology than even heard of Shrugged. > > My argument was that poster was very wrong. > > Then you started posting things. Wow, are you ever confused. **I** wagered that more people had **read** a Calvin and Hobbes anthology than had heard of Atlas Shrugged. It’s funny that you both took this literally, and that you think you’ve disproven it. > [@](#): > > I still don’t understand what you are getting on about. > > Maybe you should follow the thread and see what I was responding to before you start using the word “foolishness”. That word is not very nice. You’re killing me. This is awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/255 "2009-02-15T00:19:15Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > This is awesome. Calling my posts foolishness is not awesome. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/256 "2009-02-15T00:22:15Z")
:dubious: > [@HAL 9000](#): > > I’m sorry. I can’t let you call me foolish, Dave. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/257 "2009-02-15T02:05:52Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Pain/avoiding is not a programmed response. It’s a LEARNED response. If we were born with the knowledge that fire hurts, and if we (as a species) make a programmed response to it (say, when burned, we all turned around in a circle clockwise and said ‘SomBitch! YIP YIP YIP!’)…THAT would be an instinct. Instead, we have to play with the pretty fire, get burned and THEN we figure out that it’s hope. > > -XT :rolleyes: Not FIRE. PAIN. Pain itself. That pain hurts is instinctive. THAT is what I meant. If something hurts, you will react. Jesus!!! [Wiki’s 100 Most Influential Books Ever Written](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Most_Influential_Books_Ever_Written). Nope, no Ayn. Wouldn’t that make Rand more influential than Shakespeare? Orwell? Fitzgerald? Why then, was I never assigned any Rand in school? Instead of Twain, or Steinbeck? Harper Lee, or Faulkner? Truman Capote? God, Rand herself came from the USSR-I’d say MARX had a lot more influence than she ever did. To get back to the story for a moment, another point that came to me-the effects of the industry on society, and the OBLIGATIONS of the giants (in this case, Reardon, Dagny, Galt, etc). Let’s take, for example, Reardon Steel. So Hank has his mills producing tons of steel, he’s the top producer in the nation-if not the world. EXTREMELY successful, a titan in the industry. BUT…one of the downsides is that his mills are also belching out so much smog and filth that the city is pitch black 24/7. The street lamps burn all day, and you cannot walk down the street without being covering in soot and ash. People have to keep extra clothing at work to change into, and forget about wearing white! As well, the river resemble a sewer! People are becoming sick from the severe pollution. So, let me ask-DOES Reardon metal now have an obligation to the people of the city, to clean up HIS mess? Should he be FORCED to do so? What say you? ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/258 "2009-02-15T02:52:08Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > BUT…one of the downsides is that his mills are also belching out so much smog and filth that the city is pitch black 24/7. The street lamps burn all day, and you cannot walk down the street without being covering in soot and ash. People have to keep extra clothing at work to change into, and forget about wearing white! As well, the river resemble a sewer! People are becoming sick from the severe pollution. > > So, let me ask-DOES Reardon metal now have an obligation to the people of the city, to clean up HIS mess? Should he be FORCED to do so? What say you? From [here](http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=8151): > [@Ayn Rand](#): > > As far as the issue of actual pollution is concerned, it is primarily a scientific, not a political, problem. **In regard to the political principle involved: if a man creates a physical danger or harm to others, which extends beyond the line of his own property, such as unsanitary conditions or even loud noise, and if this is proved, the law can and does hold him responsible. If the condition is collective, such as in an overcrowded city, appropriate and objective laws can be defined, protecting the rights of all those involved** – as was done in the case of oil rights, air-space rights, etc. But such laws cannot demand the impossible, must not be aimed at a single scapegoat, i.e., the industrialists, and must take into consideration the whole context of the problem, i.e., the absolute necessity of the continued existence of industry – if the preservation of human life is the standard. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/259 "2009-02-15T03:31:13Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Not FIRE. PAIN. Pain itself. That pain hurts is instinctive. THAT is what I meant. If something hurts, you will react. Jesus!!! [/QUOTE] Jesus yourself. You roll your eyes and wave your hands and just keep this going. Fine. Cite. Let’s see a cite that pain is classified as an instinct. If it is, fine…you have my apologies for being so dense. It happens. If not…well then I’m willing to just let it drop, in spite of the insulting tone some of ya’ll are taking on a friggin hijack. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/260 "2009-02-15T03:45:02Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > [Wiki’s 100 Most Influential Books Ever Written](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Most_Influential_Books_Ever_Written). Nope, no Ayn. That list was written by one person as personal opinion. His conscience, or perhaps political leanings compelled him to say of Rand ‘‘Her crypto-totalitarian and ultra-simplistic ideas have had some influence on the conservatively bred young, since they allow people to be ruthless without a bad conscience.’’ In the words of Bixby Snyder, “I’d buy that for a dollar”. It is acceptable to be ruthless as long as you do not interfere with the rights of others. It will not gain you a circle of happy friends, IMHO, but who am I to care if someone decides to be ruthless. Ultra-simplicity is underrated also IMHO. I live my life according to most Objectivist ideals and it serves me well. Some highlights: A gift is something you give to someone because you feel good giving it to them and it is theirs to do with what they wish. If they sell it on Ebay then it makes me just as happy. I did not give it to them to control their whole gift receiving protocol. I will not live for another or expect another to live for me. I am an individual. Emotions are sensors, not guides. Only reason and wisdom should serve as a guide. Happiness is my default state. Anything else is wrong. VERY wrong. Fix it quick. Rationality is a choice. Some choose to evade reason. Sucks to be them. Unconditional love is garbage. When there are no conditions, there is no value in the love. Defense of rights should be the only function of government. Selfishness is a good concept, being an individual and all. * * * I have not met an Objectivist ideal I disagree with and most detractors focus on the warped sex life of Rand which I also find warped but not as warped as half the stuff I may have fapped to at one time or another. She was well within her ideals to conduct her love life the way she saw fit and while I do not appreciate one single bit of it in her novels, I was, in fact, a guest in her world. Erotic combat is a wicked cool term but not my cup of tea. Frankly, I am surprised it has not sprung into a cottage philosophy at this point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=14)