# Ayn Rand's philosophy on the middle and working classes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381 "2009-02-11T16:26:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/261 "2009-02-15T03:47:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] That you renamed anything as a reflex undercut your credibilty, because redefinition isn’t argument. [/QUOTE] Ah…you are laboring under the misapprehension that I made the term up it seems. Please, let me disabuse you of that notion. From [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflex): > [@](#): > > Reflex > > A reflex action, also known as a reflex, is an involuntary and nearly instantaneous movement in response to a stimulus.[1] In most contexts, in particular those involving humans, reflex actions are mediated via the reflex arc; this is not always true in other animals, nor does it apply to casual uses of the term ‘reflex’. I’m not going to slog back through everything I wrote, but I believe I mentioned infant suckling? > [@](#): > > Reflexes usually only observed in infants > > ``` > Main article: Primitive reflexes > > ``` > > Grasp reflex > > Newborn babies have a number of other reflexes which are not seen in adults, referred to as primitive reflexes.[2] These include: > > ``` > * Asymmetrical tonic neck reflex (ATNR) > * Grasp reflex > * Hand-to-mouth reflex > * Moro reflex, also known as the startle reflex > * Sucking > * Symmetrical tonic neck reflex (STNR) > * Tonic labyrinthine reflex (TLR) > > ``` Since we are on this stupid subject, why not look at what Wiki has to say about what an instinct is while we are beating this dead horse to death in mid-stream? I note (with some irony) that ‘pain’ did not, curiously enough, make the list. > [@](#): > > Instinct is the inherent disposition of a living organism toward a particular behavior. Instincts are unlearned, inherited fixed action patterns of responses or reactions to certain kinds of stimuli. Examples of instinctual fixed action patterns can be observed in the behavior of animals, which perform various activities (sometimes complex) that are not based upon prior experience and do not depend on emotion[citation needed] or learning, such as reproduction, and feeding among insects. Sea turtles, hatched on a beach, automatically move toward the ocean, and honeybees communicate by dance the direction of a food source, all without formal instruction. Other examples include animal fighting, animal courtship behavior, internal escape functions, and building of nests. Another term for the same concept is innate behavior. > > Instinctual actions - in contrast to actions based on learning which is served by memory and which provides individually stored successful reactions built upon experience - have no learning curve, they are hard-wired and ready to use without learning, but do depend on maturational processes to appear. > > Biological predispositions are innate biologically vectored behaviors that can be easily learned. For example in one hour a baby colt can learn to stand, walk, and run with the herd of horses. Learning is required to fine tune the neurological wiring reflex like behavior. True reflexes can be distinguished from instincts by their seat in the nervous system; reflexes are controlled by spinal or other peripheral ganglion, but instincts are the province of the brain. > [@](#): > > Overview > > Technically speaking, any event that initiates an instinctive behavior is termed a key stimulus (KS) or a releasing stimulus. Key stimuli in turn lead to innate releasing mechanisms (IRM), which in turn produce fixed action patterns (FAP). More than one key stimulus may be needed to trigger a FAP. Sensory receptor cells are critical in determining the type of FAP which is initiated. For instance, the reception of pheromones through nasal sensory receptor cells may trigger a sexual response, while the reception of a “frightening sound” through auditory sensory receptor cells may trigger a fight or flight response. The neural networks of these different sensory cells assist in integrating the signal from many receptors to determine the degree of the KS and therefore produce an appropriate degree of response. Several of these responses are determined by carefully regulated chemical messengers called hormones. The endocrine system, which is responsible for the production and transport of hormones throughout the body, is made up of many secretory glands that produce hormones and release them for transport to target organs. Specifically in vertebrates, neural control of this system is funneled through the hypothalamus to the anterior and posterior pituitary gland. Whether or not the behavioral response to a given key stimuli is either learned, genetic, or both is the center of study in the field of behavioural genetics. Researchers use techniques such as inbreeding and knockout studies to separate learning and environment from genetic determination of behavioral traits. The definitions of what constitutes instinct in humans beyond infancy is conjectural. It could be said that as well as obvious instincts such as breathing, sex-drive, desire to communicate, etc., humans also have an instinct toward knowledge[citation needed]. The will to invent solutions to requirements, to present self and possessions aesthetically and to be organised economically, culturally, religiously and politically could be described as instincts to promote survival, which are further enhanced by learning which is not instinctive. > > In a situation when two instincts contradict each other, an animal may resort to a displacement activity. > [@](#): > > In humans > > Some sociobiologists and ethologists have attempted to comprehend human and animal social behavior in terms of instincts. Psychoanalysts have stated that instinct refers to human motivational forces (such as sex and aggression), sometimes represented as life instinct and death instinct. This use of the term motivational forces has mainly been replaced by the term instinctual drives. > > Instincts in humans can also be seen in what are called instinctive reflexes. Reflexes, such as the Babinski Reflex (fanning of the toes when the foot is stroked), are seen in babies and are indicative of stages of development. These reflexes can truly be considered instinctive because they are generally free of environmental influences or conditioning. > > Additional human traits that have been looked at as instincts are: sleeping, altruism, disgust, face perception, language acquisitions, “fight or flight” and “subjugate or be subjugated”. Some experiments in human and primate societies have also come to the conclusion that a sense of fairness could be considered instinctual, with humans and apes willing to harm their own interests in protesting unfair treatment of self or others.[1][2] > > Many scientists consider that it is instinctual in children to put everything in their mouths, because this is how they tell their immune system about the environment and the surroundings, what the immune system should adapt to.[3] > > Other sociologists argue that humans have no instincts, defining them as a “complex pattern of behavior present in every specimen of a particular species, that is innate, and that cannot be overridden.” Said sociologists argue that drives such as sex and hunger cannot be considered instincts, as they can be overridden. This definitory argument is present in many introductory sociology and biology textbooks,[4] but is still hotly debated. Things have changed since I studied this stuff. The way I learned it most of the things listed above were considered ‘reflexive actions’ (contrary to the belief of some I didn’t make the term up…though I’m flattered in a backhanded sort of way to receive such credit). It seems that definitions have changed somewhat since the dark ages when I studies this subject…or perhaps my understanding was imperfect. Though reading the last line…perhaps not. Seems there is still some debate on this…despite the hand waving and ‘Of COURSE humans have instinct you cretin’ type remarks. I’m willing to, at this point, let this stupid hijack go. Back away from the key boards everyone and either continue to beat Rand up some more or perhaps have someone start a thread to debate human instinct or the lack there of. Whatever floats everyone’s boat. And now, back to some serious drinking… -XT ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/262 "2009-02-15T04:02:31Z")
Now I remember what bugged me so much about her: it is the\* tone\* of her writing, she is an unpleasant conversation. She’s not as smart as she thinks she is, but seems accustomed to an audience who rates her quite highly. Thus, she thinks she can offer rationalizations in place of reason, she thinks she’ll get away with it. “…must not be aimed at a single scapegoat…” is prime Rand. Why, heavens no, we would not want to have someone unjustly singled out and scapegoated! Why, that would be terrible! And then we are invited to gratitude for the industrialists, how they toil that we might have them, given the “absolute necessity” of their “continued existence”. How many of us have stopped in our daily lives to thank an industrialist for this selfless service? At the same time that she denies the value of altruism, she tries to steal a bit of its polish. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/263 "2009-02-15T04:18:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > she denies the value of altruism Altruism, by definition, has no value. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/264 "2009-02-15T04:44:46Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > That list was written by one person as personal opinion. His conscience, or perhaps political leanings compelled him to say of Rand ‘‘Her crypto-totalitarian and **ultra-simplistic** ideas have had some influence on the conservatively bred young, since they allow people to be ruthless without a bad conscience.’’ > > In the words of Bixby Snyder, “I’d buy that for a dollar”. > > It is acceptable to be ruthless as long as you do not interfere with the rights of others. It will not gain you a circle of happy friends, IMHO, but who am I to care if someone decides to be ruthless. > > **Ultra-simplicity** is underrated also IMHO. \<_SNIP_\> > > **Bolding** mine **-kd99** Just thought I’d pop in to call your attention to the fact that “simplicity” is NOT the noun form of “simplistic.” It is the noun form of “simple.” The noun form of “simplistic” is “simplism” (the consistent application of modifying prefixes to these words preserves their relationships). The definition of “simplism” is > [@](#): > > the reduction of a problem to a false simplicity by ignoring complicating factors Under the circumstances, a reasoning man might be forgiven for finding it difficult to underrate the quality. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/265 "2009-02-15T04:47:33Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Altruism, by definition, has no value. It’s always been my understanding that value itself, is a subjective concept. ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/266 "2009-02-15T04:55:17Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Altruism, by definition, has no value. Yet lots of very successful animal and insect species have thrived in spite of adopting altruism as a means of furthering their evolutionary fitness for survival. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/267 "2009-02-15T05:13:26Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s always been my understanding that value itself, is a subjective concept. Luckily there are no subjectivists around here or else they may exploit my other hypocrisy that I like receiving blowjobs but do not like so much giving them. No, seriously… Objective value employs rational standards. The value of anything is objectively evaluated by moral standards. Standards are solidly rooted in facts. Your values may be subjective but mine are objective. A=A, bub. (edit A equals A… stupid shift key) ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/268 "2009-02-15T05:15:09Z")
> [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](#): > > Yet lots of very successful animal and insect species have thrived in spite of adopting altruism as a means of furthering their evolutionary fitness for survival. 😉 Example please. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/269 "2009-02-15T05:22:42Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just thought I’d pop in to call your attention to the fact that “simplicity” is NOT the noun form of “simplistic.” It is not my attention you need to call. I cut-and-pasted that quote from an Ayn Rand detractor. It is kind of a hoot that Mr “I am a wicked critic who publishes lists” stumblebummed, though. Thank you, kind skeptic! ---
**Author:** ![Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enter_the_Flagon)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/270 "2009-02-15T05:27:02Z")
**Examples of animal altruism** [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism\_in\_animals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals) > [@](#): > > Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers.[6] > > Dolphins support sick or injured animals, swimming under them for hours at a time and pushing them to the surface so they can breathe.[citation needed] > > Wolves and wild dogs bring meat back to members of the pack not present at the kill.[citation needed] > > Male baboons threaten predators and cover the rear as the troop retreats.[citation needed] > > Gibbons and chimpanzees with food will, in response to a gesture, share their food with others of the group.[citation needed]. Chimpanzees will help other humans and Conspecifics without any reward in return[7] > > Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.[8] > > According to the research of Gerald Wilkinson, vampire bats have a “buddy system” in which a bat who has had a successful night of feeding will regurgitate blood for its less fortunate companion.[9] > > Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens.[10] > > In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives support in raising its young from other “helper” birds, including help with the feeding of its fledglings.[11] Some will even go as far as protecting an unrelated bird’s young from predators [12] > > Most mammal carnivores like wolves or dogs have a habit of not harming pack members below certain age, of opposite sex or in surrendering position (in case of some animals, the behavior exists within entire species rather than one pack).[citation needed] > > Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.[13] > > Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.[14] > > Termites release a sticky secretion by rupturing a gland near the skin in their neck, this autothysis defends against invading ants by creating a tar baby effect.[15] ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/271 "2009-02-15T05:39:37Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > It is not my attention you need to call. I cut-and-pasted that quote from an Ayn Rand detractor. Did you? Not very polite of you to not attribute it, then. Might I trouble you to do so, preferably with a link to the page that contains the quote? ETA: And if I fail to respond to it before tomorrow, please forgive me. I’ll be away from a computer for the next several hours. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/272 "2009-02-15T06:05:50Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Did you? Not very polite of you to not attribute it, then. Might I trouble you to do so, preferably with a link to the page that contains the quote? No, you may not trouble me. DENIED. I wish to force you to repeat the simple act I engaged in. My act was fruitful and simple. If you have a specific problem, please do alert me. I am not callous, I am not sadistic. I am, however, disgusted at your capacity to keep up with me. I am one sloppy fellow in the scope of things. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/273 "2009-02-15T06:14:18Z")
> [@Enter\_the\_Flagon](#): > > **Examples of animal altruism** Could you repost that without the whole “citation needed” thing? In case you say no, then… Citation needed. Walt Disney movies have parrots coveting diamonds and meerkats vocally (in English) complaining about flatulence and bluebirds trilling entire musical compositions but I do not give a multimillionaire the pass so what gives you a chance? In short, just talk to me like a human would talk. your list sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/274 "2009-02-15T06:19:43Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Did you? Not very polite of you to not attribute it I most certainly did. “compelled him to say” were my exact words. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/275 "2009-02-15T08:17:44Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > No, you may not trouble me. > > DENIED. > > I wish to force you to repeat the simple act I engaged in. My act was fruitful and simple. > [@Madgolf](#): > > Could you repost that without the whole “citation needed” thing? > > In case you say no, then… > > Citation needed. So, in one post, you ask someone else to track down a quote for which you did not provide a link. Then, in the very next post, you ask someone to repost something you previously requested because the link that he \*\*did \*\*provide only gave you [10 cited examples](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#References). You were apparently willing to do even less than the “fruitful and simple” act performed by **Enter the Flagon** : all that was needed was to click on the link he provided, and you’d have more examples than you were likely hoping for. Were you aware of the contradiction when you posted, or was it a case of cognitive dissonance? ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/276 "2009-02-15T08:39:21Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > 10 cited examples 10 cited examples + 7 citation needed = epic fail ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/277 "2009-02-15T09:03:22Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > So, in one post, you ask someone else to track down a quote for which you did not provide a link. I know the quote exists. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/278 "2009-02-15T09:07:37Z")
I count 5 claims for which a citation was needed. Where are you getting 7? More significantly, your failure to engage the relevant and cited examples – which you asked for and which do much to belie your claim that “altruism has no value” – has become conspicuous. If it will help, I will provide exactly what you asked of **Flagon** : a reposting of the list including only cited statements. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > ``` > * Dogs often adopt orphaned cats, squirrels, ducks and even tigers.[6] > * Chimpanzees will help other humans and Conspecifics without any reward in return[7] > * Bonobos have been observed aiding injured or handicapped bonobos.[8] > * According to the research of Gerald Wilkinson, vampire bats have a "buddy system" in which a bat who has had a successful night of feeding will regurgitate blood for its less fortunate companion.[9] > * Raccoons inform conspecifics about feeding grounds by droppings left on commonly shared latrines. A similar information system has been observed to be used by common ravens.[10] > * In numerous bird species, a breeding pair receives support in raising its young from other "helper" birds, including help with the feeding of its fledglings.[11] Some will even go as far as protecting an unrelated bird's young from predators [12] > * Vervet Monkeys give alarm calls to warn fellow monkeys of the presence of predators, even though in doing so they attract attention to themselves, increasing their personal chance of being attacked.[13] > * Walruses have been seen adopting orphans who lost their parents to predators.[14] > * Termites release a sticky secretion by rupturing a gland near the skin in their neck, this autothysis defends against invading ants by creating a tar baby effect.[15] > > ``` Again, see [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#References) to examine the citations. > [@Madgolf](#): > > I know the quote exists. Right, but \*\*he \*\*doesn’t, hence the request that you provide a link. That’s how it works on the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Madgolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Madgolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Madgolf)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/279 "2009-02-15T09:10:06Z")
> [@VarlosZ](#): > > I count 5 claims for which a citation was needed. Rating = poor Why don’t you go get those citations and get back to us. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381/280 "2009-02-15T09:15:34Z")
> [@Madgolf](#): > > Rating = poor So, you’re refusing to examine the evidence presented to you on principle? You’re not willing to examine anything that isn’t pristine? > [@](#): > > Why don’t you go get those citations and get back to us. I honestly have no earthly idea what you’re asking for. I have now twice linked you directly to a list of all of the citations. [And now I’ve done it three times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals#References). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayn-rands-philosophy-on-the-middle-and-working-classes/485381.md?page=15)