# Ayotte v. Planned Parenthood - SCOTUS takes on an abortion case! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2005, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190 "2005-05-23T23:51:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/21 "2005-05-24T05:06:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How many girls end up at bargain basement, back alley abortionists because they haven’t consulted their parents, and don’t have the funds or knowledge to find a quality abortion clinic. How many teenagers don’t know the words “Planned Parenthood”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/22 "2005-05-24T05:15:39Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How many girls end up at bargain basement, back alley abortionists because they haven’t consulted their parents, and don’t have the funds or knowledge to find a quality abortion clinic. Teenagers are notorious for making poor decisions. Taking parents out of the loop isn’t the answer. _Forcing_ them into the loop will result in MORE bad decisions, not to mention more abuse. What is the upside? What good is accomplished by ratting them out to abusive parents? How will that _reduce_ bad decisions? How are parents harmed if they never know their kid had an abortion? > [@](#): > > Like I said before it is certain that somewhere some kid was beaten for his grades or for being arrested. That does not mean we should stop sending grades home or calling a childs guardian when he is arrested. Treis, the question you asked was how many girls would seek illegal abortions. That is an altogether _different_ question than whether it is acceptable or desirable to inform potentially abusive parents. You can roll your eyes all you want, but getting an abortion is not a crime and a pregnancy is a profoundly different situation than a bad report card. Fear of a bad report card does not result in botched home surgeries or newborns being tossed in dumpsters. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/23 "2005-05-24T06:20:38Z")
My general feeling is that if you are old enough to get pregnant, you are old enough to decide to have an abortion. Shouldn’t this decision be the girl’s, and not the parents, courts, etc.? And, when would it be ethically appropriate to force a girl to give birth to a baby she didn’t want? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/24 "2005-05-24T11:30:30Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > How exactly does a teenager go through a legal procedure to get a judge to approve WITHOUT her parents being notified, unofficially if nothing else? “Where were you all day, honey?” “Oh, I was at court trying to get a judge to let me have an abortion.” “That’s nice”. > > Uh-huh. Wow. Your hypothetical teenager can’t summon the wherewithal to lie to her parents concerning her court visit? I would humbly suggest that parental notification rules in her case are moot. Even if she could get an abortion without the law requiring her parents be informed, she’ll simply blurt it out when she’s questioned about her day. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/25 "2005-05-24T11:33:06Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > Also, is this judge’s exemption only given for cases of sexual abuse or can it also be given for fear of physical abuse or abandonment? It can be based on fear of physical abuse or abandonment. > [@](#): > > What are the criteria for establishing whether the girl is telling the truth about abuse or is making it up. If she can’t prove anything does she still get the exception? Will the court just take her at her word? if so, then what’s to stop any and all of them from claiming abuse or fear of abuse to avoid parental notification? As judges are called to do every day, the judges must weigh the credibility of the witness and decide whether her testimony is credible. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/26 "2005-05-24T11:37:11Z")
> [@rfgdxm](#): > > My general feeling is that if you are old enough to get pregnant, you are old enough to decide to have an abortion. Shouldn’t this decision be the girl’s, and not the parents, courts, etc.? And, when would it be ethically appropriate to force a girl to give birth to a baby she didn’t want? Really? An eleven-year-old? A ten-year-old? By the mere fact that they are old enough to get pregnant, they are old enough to decide this issue for themselves? All I can say in response to this is I don’t agree. and we’ll have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/27 "2005-05-24T13:51:19Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] > [@](#): > > As judges are called to do every day, the judges must weigh the credibility of the witness and decide whether her testimony is credible. This is begging the question. He will weight her credibility _how_? Against _what?_ Is he just going to use his magic judge powers of divination to decide if a teenager is telling the truth? Do you have 100% confidence that the judge will never get it wrong? You don’t think a an abused teenage girl might find it just a little bit intimidating to have to be cross-examined by a judge who will decide at his whim- and on the basis of no physical evidence - if she’s lying or not? Do you think that some judges might be just a little bit biased by their own personal feelings about aboortion? What is to be gained by making it _les_ desirable for a girl to seek a safe abortion? What is the upside to this? What greater good is served by ratting these girls out to their parents? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/28 "2005-05-24T13:54:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really? An eleven-year-old? A ten-year-old? By the mere fact that they are old enough to get pregnant, they are old enough to decide this issue for themselves? > > All I can say in response to this is I don’t agree. and we’ll have to agree to disagree. If she is 10 or 11, then the abuse goes without saying and the kid probably needs to be protected from her parents anyway. ---
**Author:** ![rfgdxm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c0e974/32.png) [@rfgdxm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rfgdxm)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/29 "2005-05-24T14:05:26Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > If she is 10 or 11, then the abuse goes without saying and the kid probably needs to be protected from her parents anyway. The father could be a 12 year old boy she goes to school with. ---
**Author:** ![minty\_green](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f6c823/32.png) [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/30 "2005-05-24T14:06:21Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > How many teenagers don’t know the words “Planned Parenthood”? If teen pregnancy rates are any indication, there are plenty of teenagers who either don’t know Planned Parenthood (or its equivalents) or are too scared/embarrassed/intimidated to pay them a visit before (or immediately after) engaging in sexual conduct. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/31 "2005-05-24T14:07:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow. Your hypothetical teenager can’t summon the wherewithal to lie to her parents concerning her court visit? I would humbly suggest that parental notification rules in her case are moot. Even if she could get an abortion without the law requiring her parents be informed, she’ll simply blurt it out when she’s questioned about her day. I actually have another question about this. Are you saying that if a girl goes to Planned Parenthood seeking an abortion, she’s going to be forced to schedule a court date with a judge before she can receive the procedure to which she is constitutionally entitled? Or can she get the abortion first and then schedule a hearing to determine if some judge thinks he needs to tell her parents? If she can get the abortion first, without fear of interference from the parents, I’d have an easier time with it. I also think the judge should have to automatically take a girl’s word about fear of abuse and not be allowed any discretion in the matter. Anything else will either cause girls to seek less safe abortions or will carry a risk of putting them into abusive situations. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/32 "2005-05-24T14:08:37Z")
I don’t agree that we should legislate in the belief that every single family is abusive/incestous until proven otherwise. A girl needs someone to help her understand her choices, and usually, to boost her self-esteem so that she doesn’t give herself to men or boys that have no intention of helping her. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/33 "2005-05-24T14:15:19Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > I don’t agree that we should legislate in the belief that every single family is abusive/incestous until proven otherwise. > > A girl needs someone to help her understand her choices, and usually, to boost her self-esteem so that she doesn’t give herself to men or boys that have no intention of helping her. I fail to see what your second sentence has to do with topic. If a girl says that her stepfather got her pregnant or that her mother will throw her out of the house if she finds out the girl got pregnant, do you take her at her word or do you make her somehow prove it? Do you want these kids to feel that seeking a legal abortion is a safe option or do you want them to fear it and to seek illegal options instead? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/34 "2005-05-24T14:28:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I am cautiously optimistic that this case will be the vehicle for the Court to find that state strict parental notification laws are permissible. > > That isn’t the law, and I hope and pray it does not BECOME the law. A position reached, no doubt, on the principles of strict construction and textualism. It’s surely not simple result-driven jurisprudence, is it? :dubious: We keep our legal system separate from what we individually may pray for, for some damn good reasons. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/35 "2005-05-24T14:32:29Z")
**Bricker** : > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Abortion is a uniquely personal decision and involves a level of privacy that even parents have no right to intrude upon uninvited. > > That isn’t the law, and I hope and pray it does not BECOME the law. I pray with at least equal fervor that it does. Do you think a parent should have the right to force a pregnant minor to undergo an abortion? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/36 "2005-05-24T14:37:45Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > How many girls end up at bargain basement, back alley abortionists because they haven’t consulted their parents, and don’t have the funds or knowledge to find a quality abortion clinic. Teenagers are notorious for making poor decisions. Taking parents out of the loop isn’t the answer. Actually, that is my biggest concern. If it is known that “the way to get an abortion without your parents finding out is to tell the judge your dad did it” there will be teenagers (who are notorious for making poor decisions) accusing their fathers of incest unjustifiably. In addition to having poor judgement, teenagers are also often selfish, shortsighted, and don’t have a great respect for their parents who “don’t understand them.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/37 "2005-05-24T14:38:35Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > This is begging the question. He will weight her credibility _how_? Against _what?_ Is he just going to use his magic judge powers of divination to decide if a teenager is telling the truth? The same mahic judge powers he uses to decide if a police officer is telling the truth about smelling marijuana in an evidence suppression hearing, yes. The same magic judge powers that he uses in a bench trial to determine if the accused rapist is telling the truth when he says the sex was consensual. The same magic judge powers, in fact, that he is required to use every day as part of his job, and which until today I have never heard descriibed as “magic judge powers.” > [@](#): > > Do you have 100% confidence that the judge will never get it wrong? You don’t think a an abused teenage girl might find it just a little bit intimidating to have to be cross-examined by a judge who will decide at his whim- and on the basis of no physical evidence - if she’s lying or not? No, but I don’t accept your crazy standard that we need “100% confidence” in order to make a judicial determination, either. I am confident that a judge will get it right in the vast majority of cases. I thought you were one of the Tribe that wanted judges to have the power to do what they think is Right, by the way. What happened to that vaunted confidence in the judiciary? > [@](#): > > What is to be gained by making it _les_ desirable for a girl to seek a safe abortion? What is the upside to this? What greater good is served by ratting these girls out to their parents? It serves the notion that a parent has a great responsibility for the care and upbringing of a minor child. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I actually have another question about this. Are you saying that if a girl goes to Planned Parenthood seeking an abortion, she’s going to be forced to schedule a court date with a judge before she can receive the procedure to which she is constitutionally entitled? Yes. And you’re begging the question by saying flatly that she is constitutionaly entitled to an abortion. No court has ever held that a minor has an absolute constitutional right to an abortion under all circumstances. And I fervently hope no court ever will. > [@](#): > > I also think the judge should have to automatically take a girl’s word about fear of abuse and not be allowed any discretion in the matter. Anything else will either cause girls to seek less safe abortions or will carry a risk of putting them into abusive situations. Ha ha! Then what’s the role of the judge? Why can’t the girl just write a note for the file, saying she fears abuse? In fact, that will take too long. Why not have a pre-printed form: “I DO DO NOT fear abuse (check only one).” ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/38 "2005-05-24T14:47:03Z")
**Bricker** : > [@](#): > > An eleven-year-old? A ten-year-old? By the mere fact that they are old enough to get pregnant, they are old enough to decide this issue for themselves? Anyone too young to make the decision is way too young to have babies and should have an abortion. However, I just don’t think anyone is in a better position to make that judgment than the girl herself. If she says she wants to give birth to the baby, I think she should have the legal right to do so, no matter how young she is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/39 "2005-05-24T14:49:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A position reached, no doubt, on the principles of strict construction and textualism. It’s surely not simple result-driven jurisprudence, is it? :dubious: Why, yes. I contend, as I always have, that abortion is simply not a federal constitutional question - that _Roe v. Wade_ was wrongly decided. It follows as does the night from the day that STATES are the ones that have the power to regulate (or prohibit) abortion. I’ve said many times, for example, that I would be horrified at a decision from the Supreme Court that overruled _Roe_ by finding that an unborn child has a federal constitutional right to due process, and thus cannot be aborted. Note that I want EXACTLY THIS RESULT: I want abortion prohibited, because I believe it is murder. But I do NOT wnat it prohibited by interpretation of the federal constitution, because that would be … activist. Got it now? So - based on that framework, I of course believe it’s for the states to regulate abortion as they see fit, which includes parental notification if the people of that state believe it’s wise. > [@](#): > > We keep our legal system separate from what we individually may pray for, for some damn good reasons. Yes, of course - I was not suggesting that the legal system be based on my prayers; I was merely noting that I strongly wished and prayed for a particular result to occur, not as a result of my prayers, but in consonance with them. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190/40 "2005-05-24T14:54:00Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] > [@Bricker](#): > > This is begging the question. He will weight her credibility _how_? Against _what?_ Is he just going to use his magic judge powers of divination to decide if a teenager is telling the truth? I would assume that the judge will do just what I’ve witnessed in court: Judge (asking questions of a minor): Do you know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie? Minor: Yes. Judge: OK. Tell me what the difference is. Minor: The truth is something that really happened. A lie is something that didn’t happen, but that you say did. Judge: Sounds like he knows the difference between a lie and the truth to me. He can tesitfy. And this was a 6 year old boy that had witnessed the murder of his mother by his father. No magic powers needed at all and judges do the exact same thing every day of the week. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ayotte-v-planned-parenthood-scotus-takes-on-an-abortion-case/305190.md?page=3)