# Aziz Ansari, Sexual assault allegations **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 14, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606 "2018-01-14T16:22:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/201 "2018-01-16T05:36:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m sorry that your sex life invariably ends up with a loser. And that you think normal behavior is problematic. What the actual fuck? They are saying that by calling it a game, _others_ are insisting there must be a winner and loser. They are saying it shouldn’t be thought of as a game, because there _shouldn’t_ be winners and losers. And by no means are they implying, even a little bit, that in their own sex life there are winners and losers. If anything, they are implying the opposite. Are you serious? Are you actually serious? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/202 "2018-01-16T05:37:05Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > Because you’re calling them BOTH “assault” And how did I reply to this point? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/203 "2018-01-16T05:39:59Z")
> [@](#): > > You certainly wouldn’t call it assault in a newspaper where stakes are high concerning extra precision. But the word gets used in the general world for more things than newspapers are willing to call it. Probably precisely because it has both a legal sense and a more general sense, and news reporting has to keep that legal sense in mind more carefully than the general sense. > > I sincerely hope you’re not trying to explain how the industry I work in, have more than a decade of experience with, and postgraduate qualifications in works, are you? Because I assure you, you are incorrect on this point. So… you are saying that news reporting doesn’t have to keep a legal sense in mind when choosing what words to use in reporting? > [@](#): > > No, just as I think most people who think the Queen is a Lizard or the Earth is flat or Aliens built the pyramids aren’t doing it just to be edgy/controversial/lol-worthy. Doesn’t make them any less wrong or weird, though. As I said. You don’t know what “edgelord” means, Mr. I’m A Journalist And I Know Words. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/204 "2018-01-16T05:42:10Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > And how did I reply to this point? With the point I addressed in the second part of my reply, namely that you can’t say one of them “doesn’t count” for purposes of complaining about it. > [@Frylock](#): > > So… you are saying that news reporting doesn’t have to keep a legal sense in mind when choosing what words to use in reporting? Not in a general news story where the legal sense is at odds with what the average person uses the term to mean. Obviously it’s a different kettle of fish for legal stories or court reporting. > [@](#): > > As I said. You don’t know what “edgelord” means, Mr. I’m A Journalist And I Know Words. In this example I said “edgy”. Different word and absolutely correct in this context. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/205 "2018-01-16T05:43:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What the actual fuck? They are saying that by calling it a game, _others_ are insisting there must be a winner and loser. They are saying it shouldn’t be thought of as a game, because there _shouldn’t_ be winners and losers. And by no means are they implying, even a little bit, that in their own sex life there are winners and losers. If anything, they are implying the opposite. > > Are you serious? Are you actually serious? That poster said that normal behaviors in the bedroom invariably end up with a loser. I suppose I came to a hasty conclusion because that poster might only be engaging in abnormal behavior in the bedroom. Don’t come after me because other posters are riding you. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/206 "2018-01-16T05:48:04Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > With the point I addressed in the second part of my reply, namely that you can’t say one of them “doesn’t count” for purposes of complaining about it. Fair enough, I can read it that way. The passage you refer to here ignores another thing I wrote, which is I’m not wedded to the idea of calling every non-consensual touch “assault” anymore. Sure, I said I still think that’s the technically correct postion, but I’m not really interested in arguing for it anymore. What one person calls “diluting a term’s significance” another calls “pointing out that lot of things we thought weren’t significant actually are significant.” I think the best way to do this is to re-define the term, in light of current events and trends, so that it encapsulates what is _fundamentally wrong_ with assault, and then make the difficult discussions ones about which non-consensual touchings are okay and how okay and are they really okay or just acceptable in some sense or other etc. The alternative, insisting on only using the term “assault” in the more serious sense (which btw has yet to actually be defined in this thread, only gestured at or described more or less vaguely), leads, instead, to an inflexibility in willingness to regard behaviors _not traditionally called assault_ as being more serious than people have acknowledged in the past. But anyway. Whatever. People won’t do this. Listen to **Spice Weasel** , she is wiser than me. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/207 "2018-01-16T05:48:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m sorry that your sex life invariably ends up with a loser. And that you think normal behavior is problematic. …trying “to engage in sex any legal way you can” should not be normal behaviour. Because there are plenty of “legal ways to convince someone else to have sex” that leaves the other party distressed, or worse. > [@](#): > > That poster said that normal behaviors in the bedroom invariably end up with a loser. “That poster” has a name: and I did not say this at all. > [@](#): > > I suppose I came to a hasty conclusion because that poster might only be engaging in abnormal behavior in the bedroom. Don’t come after me because other posters are riding you. Can I suggest if you want to “come after me” you firstly you quote me and address me: and secondly you do it in the appropriate forum. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/208 "2018-01-16T05:49:12Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > People won’t do this. Listen to **Spice Weasel** , she is wiser than me. …on that I think we would have near-universal agreement. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/209 "2018-01-16T05:52:40Z")
**Martini** , if John Doe is arrested for assault, can a journalist responsibly report that they were “arrested for assault”? I ask this question not as an illustration of _exactly_ the issue I was bringing up before concerning legal language, but it’s a related issue and one more central to our dispute: The question of whether there are important differences between everyday usage and journalistic usage. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/210 "2018-01-16T05:53:40Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …on that I think we would have near-universal agreement. Oi. I don’t understand the point of your saying this. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/211 "2018-01-16T05:56:11Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …trying “to engage in sex any legal way you can” should not be normal behaviour. Because there are plenty of “legal ways to convince someone else to have sex” that leaves the other party distressed, or worse. I don’t care what you think the norms should be. I don’t want sex police. Education is the solution to these problems so that people are freely choosing to do what they want to do instead of trying to conform to someone else’s norms. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is nothing counterproductive with talking about this. There is nothing counterproductive about spending a bit of time listening to people you disagree with. Try following your own advice. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/212 "2018-01-16T06:00:22Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > In this example I said “edgy”. Different word and absolutely correct in this context. Following back the thread of conversation: > [@](#): > > Me: You don’t know what an edgelord is, mr. I’m a Journalist and I know Words. > > You: I assure you I do, Mr Lives In Their Own Strange Reality. > > Me: You think I am intentionally taking a controversial stance just to be controversial, and for no constructive purpose? > > You: No, just as I think most people who think the Queen is a Lizard or the Earth is flat or Aliens built the pyramids aren’t doing it just to be edgy/controversial/lol-worthy. Doesn’t make them any less wrong or weird, though. > > Me: As I said. You don’t know what “edgelord” means, Mr. I’m A Journalist And I Know Words. > > You: In this example I said “edgy”. Different word and absolutely correct in this context. An edgelord takes a controversial stance just to be controversial, for no constructive purpose. You just said you don’t think I’m doing that. Hence, since you don’t think that, yet called me an edgelord, you don’t know what an edgelord is. It _looks_ like you think “edgelord” is basically synonymous with “weirdo” or perhaps “weirdo who enjoys displaying their weirdness”, but I’m not certain so I’m not going to assume that’s what you think. But if that’s what you think, you’re wrong. Mr etc etc ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/213 "2018-01-16T06:01:38Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > **Martini** , if John Doe is arrested for assault, can a journalist responsibly report that they were “arrested for assault”? It would depend on what they’d done, what the specific chargers were, and how much space the journalist had. But if Mr Bloggs was arrested for grabbing Mr Smith by the arm but not injuring him, I would not report that as “Mr Bloggs is facing assault charges” but rather “Mr Bloggs is facing charges relating to the incident”, or something along those lines. If Mr Bloggs punched Mr Smith in the face, I’d be comfortable stating Mr Bloggs was facing assault charges. There’s a lot of rules about reporting anything which is likely to end up in court (or is in court) so we’re really moving from “general news sense” to “legal reporting” there, though. From a journalistic sense, a general news story about an armed robbery in which “The victim was assaulted with a cricket bat” would be conveying that the victim was _hit_ with the cricket bat - not that assailant proddded them lightly in the stomach or something like that. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/214 "2018-01-16T06:04:44Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > It would depend on what they’d done, what the specific chargers were, and how much space the journalist had. But if Mr Bloggs was arrested for grabbing Mr Smith by the arm but not injuring him, I would not report that as “Mr Bloggs is facing assault charges” but rather “Mr Bloggs is facing charges relating to the incident”, or something along those lines. > > If Mr Bloggs punched Mr Smith in the face, I’d be comfortable stating Mr Bloggs was facing assault charges. > > There’s a lot of rules about reporting anything which is likely to end up in court (or is in court) so we’re really moving from “general news sense” to “legal reporting” there, though. > > From a journalistic sense, a general news story about an armed robbery in which “The victim was assaulted with a cricket bat” would be conveying that the victim was _hit_ with the cricket bat - not that assailant proddded them lightly in the stomach or something like that. I think my question wasn’t clear. I wasn’t asking whether you should report that they were charged etc. I was asking whether you should report _using the words_ “arrested for assault.” If he was in fact arrested for assault, should a story about the arrest say “John Doe was arrested for assault”? I mean exactly those words. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/215 "2018-01-16T06:08:13Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I think my question wasn’t clear. > > I wasn’t asking whether you should report that they were charged etc. > > I was asking whether you should report _using the words_ “arrested for assault.” > > If he was in fact arrested for assault, should a story about the arrest say “John Doe was arrested for assault”? I mean exactly those words. No, because that’s not how reporting on legal or criminal matters works here, at least in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/216 "2018-01-16T06:09:27Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, because that’s not how reporting on legal or criminal matters works here, at least in my experience. So, that’s all I’m saying. That journalistic usage and everyday usage can often differ. In everyday usage, in that situation, it is in fact a true statement that John Doe was arrested for assault. The general usage sense of the phrase “arrested for assault” makes that true. But in journalistic usage, that phrase is not to be used for that situation. Journalistic usage diverges from everyday usage. Would you not say so? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/217 "2018-01-16T06:15:42Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Oi. I don’t understand the point of your saying this. …I’m agreeing with you. I think she’s wiser than anyone in this thread: I didn’t mean “just you.” She’s wiser than me, thats for sure. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/218 "2018-01-16T06:19:35Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So, that’s all I’m saying. That journalistic usage and everyday usage can often differ. > > In everyday usage, in that situation, it is in fact a true statement that John Doe was arrested for assault. The general usage sense of the phrase “arrested for assault” makes that true. > > But in journalistic usage, that phrase is not to be used for that situation. Journalistic usage diverges from everyday usage. > > Would you not say so? No, I wouldn’t. Like I said, pretty much no-one except you and lawyers thinks grabbing someone’s arm constitutes assault. The police probably wouldn’t even arrest anyone in a situation like that, unless there was a very good or an aggravating reason for it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/219 "2018-01-16T06:20:58Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’m agreeing with you. I think she’s wiser than anyone in this thread: I didn’t mean “just you.” She’s wiser than me, thats for sure. 🙂 My apologies! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606/220 "2018-01-16T06:22:10Z")
> [@Martini\_Enfield](#): > > No, I wouldn’t. > > Like I said, pretty much no-one except you and lawyers thinks grabbing someone’s arm constitutes assault. The police probably wouldn’t even arrest anyone in a situation like that, unless there was a very good or an aggravating reason for it. You’re… not following. Like. I am not talking about any of that. This is a separate conversation about a specific point concerning whether journalistic usage reflects general usage. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aziz-ansari-sexual-assault-allegations/806606.md?page=12)