# Aztec human sacrifice **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 14, 2013, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960 "2013-06-14T02:30:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/61 "2013-06-16T13:10:52Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Convulsions are common with cyanide, it dosen’t mean they can feel them, as they are unconscious in under a minute. Which sort of ignores that Chessman was signaling for _several minutes_… so cyanide causes sudden unconsciousness/death except when it doesn’t, at which point there is evidence it’s extremely painful. While I in no way would ever want an Aztec style heart extraction, it would be considerably quicker and more merciful a death than some other Old World techniques, such as [scaphism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_boats) or [impalement](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impalement) where death would take days or even weeks to occur with the victim in agony the whole time. As horrifying as it is to contemplate, getting your heart ripped out is not the worst of all fates. Horrible, yes, but you are definitely dead very quickly, not in horrific pain for a week or two. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/62 "2013-06-16T13:59:11Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Come to think of it there may be a genetic component to their sadism, the current Mexican cartel violence and beheadings come to mind. Many Mexicans are descendents of the Aztec and Mayan (who were equally sadistic) people. I have several Mexican friends and I have seen them fight in street fights and they fight with a brutality and viciousness I haven’t seen in other groups of people. Of course there is a genetic component to such brutality - it is due to the genes that confer **humanity**. I doubt you can find a single racial group in the world that has not expressed levels of institutionalized violence and brutality towards other humans. You want to single out the mexicans for a bloody past and blame their race (a superficial collection of minor genetic characteristics) as opposed to their species. What about the asians - the Khmer Rouge and Pol Pot were asians, and they killed millions of their own people in an orchestrated cleansing. Or africans, maybe, when you look at the killings and ritual maimings in Rwanda and the Congo. How about white europeans, do they have a genetic disposition to acts of brutal violence - if you look at european and white colonial history (it was Belgian colonialists that started the tradition of limb-chopping in Congo) you would have to say they did, with the mass extermination of religious, national and socioeconomic groups many times over the centuries. However, with the deep capacity for violence there is also the capacity for compassion and understanding - the ability to learn from and pass on the lessons of the past, and the bravery and sacrifice to prevent the horrors of the past from returning to the present and the future. That is the flip side to humanity - just maybe with education and compassion we can weight the coin on that more hopeful side, and rise above our base instincts driven by fear and uncertainty. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/63 "2013-06-16T15:00:10Z")
What in the hell would make them think this would satisfy the gods? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/64 "2013-06-16T15:03:38Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > What in the hell would make them think this would satisfy the gods? As with pretty much any other society, it’s all about the Power of the Priesthood. In this case it’s about using Terror to maintain that power. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/65 "2013-06-16T16:02:35Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > As with pretty much any other society, it’s all about the Power of the Priesthood. In this case it’s about using Terror to maintain that power. I see. What I was leaning more towards though is what was the rationale given to the people? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/66 "2013-06-16T16:36:08Z")
> [@panaccione](#): > > What in the hell would make them think this would satisfy the gods? The same thing that made Europeans think that burning people alive was a noble and holy thing to do. > [@panaccione](#): > > I see. What I was leaning more towards though is what was the rationale given to the people? As I said above, the explicit religious belief was that such sacrifices were necessary to feed the Sun and keep the very Universe in existence. From [Wiki:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture) > [@](#): > > Sacrifice was a common theme in Mesoamerican cultures. In the Aztec “Legend of the Five Suns”, all the gods sacrificed themselves so that mankind could live. Some years after the Spanish conquest of Mexico, a body of Franciscans confronted the remaining Aztec priesthood and demanded, under threat of death, that they desist from this traditional practice. The Aztec priests defended themselves as follows: > > “ Life is because of the gods; with their sacrifice they gave us life… They produce our sustenance… which nourishes life.[9] ” > > What the Aztec priests were referring to was a central Mesoamerican belief: that a great, on-going sacrifice sustains the Universe. Everything is tonacayotl: the “spiritual flesh-hood” on earth. Everything —earth, crops, moon, stars and people— springs from the severed or buried bodies, fingers, blood or the heads of the sacrificed gods. Humanity itself is macehualli, “those deserved and brought back to life through penance”.[10] A strong sense of indebtedness was connected with this worldview. Indeed, nextlahualli (debt-payment) was a commonly used metaphor for human sacrifice, and, as Bernardino de Sahagún reported, it was said that the victim was someone who “gave his service”. There are several other theories on the underlying causes of why the practice developed to such extent. Christianity obviously shares some aspects of this belief in the necessity of the sacrifice of a divine being, and the debt that humans owe for this, though the details are different. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2013, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/67 "2013-06-16T19:11:37Z")
Indy! Cover your heart! Cover your heart! ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/68 "2013-06-17T17:02:38Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > That is the flip side to humanity - just maybe with education and compassion we can weight the coin on that more hopeful side, and rise above our base instincts driven by fear and uncertainty. It would be idiocy to bet on it. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/69 "2013-06-17T22:49:51Z")
Did they cover or gag their mouth? I would think hearing their screams would be very disturbing ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/70 "2013-06-18T02:11:24Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Did they cover or gag their mouth? I would think hearing their screams would be very disturbing I haven’t heard of this in any accounts, or seen it in any depictions. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/71 "2013-06-18T03:49:00Z")
**matt357** , not to be rude or anything, but do you ever bother to post in anyone’s threads but your own? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/72 "2013-06-18T04:30:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **matt357** , not to be rude or anything, but do you ever bother to post in anyone’s threads but your own? Just curious. **Moderating** **Guinastasia** , I fail to see how this is of any relevance in General Questions. If you are “just curious” about another poster’s posting habits you can ask them about it in a more appropriate forum. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/73 "2013-06-18T10:19:33Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Come to think of it there may be a genetic component to their sadism, the current Mexican cartel violence and beheadings come to mind. Many Mexicans are descendents of the Aztec and Mayan (who were equally sadistic) people. Why a _genetic_ component rather than _cultural_? And you have to show continuity between pre-colonial Mexico and modern Mexico - _was_ it a particularly violent society in the intervening 500 years? And _even if_ the cause was genetic, why look to the Aztecs and Mayans for the source of the modern horrors, rather than the basically equal _Spanish_ component in Mexican genetic makeup - the historic Spanish (both at home and in Mexico) were hardly models of a nonviolent society. ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/74 "2013-06-19T03:19:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > So what was the origin of their sadism? Was it genetic? How exactly did they become sadistic before they “made up their religion.” > > As has been pointed out, the Aztecs were far from unique in their cruelty. Europeans at more or less the same time were burning thousands of people alive in public display, or executing them by disemboweling or other tortures. > > The Aztecs developed a cultural system that worked for them, at least for a time. They instituted a Reign of Terror that served to intimidate and subdue their neighbors and conquered peoples. They didn’t invent human sacrifice or other cruel aspects of their culture; these had been practiced in Mesoamerica for centuries before them. The Aztecs however ramped them up to levels not seen before. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Why a _genetic_ component rather than _cultural_? And you have to show continuity between pre-colonial Mexico and modern Mexico - _was_ it a particularly violent society in the intervening 500 years? > > And _even if_ the cause was genetic, why look to the Aztecs and Mayans for the source of the modern horrors, rather than the basically equal _Spanish_ component in Mexican genetic makeup - the historic Spanish (both at home and in Mexico) were hardly models of a nonviolent society. Because they were doing these sadistic acts long before Spain came into the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/75 "2013-06-19T04:26:08Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Because they were doing these sadistic acts long before Spain came into the picture. You keep ignoring the fact that many other cultures have institutionalized equally sadistic things (or even worse ones). As I’ve pointed out, at around the same time Europeans were burning thousands of people alive as a public spectacle, or executing them by disemboweling or dismemberment. The screams of the victims would have been equally heart-rending, but that didn’t stop Europeans from doing it. The Spanish Inquisition in particular was notorious for its brutality. Why blame present violent tendencies in Mexican society solely on their Aztec ancestry, while ignoring the fact that it may also have European roots? ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/76 "2013-06-19T06:39:04Z")
> [@eightysix](#): > > if I was to be tasked with developing a protocol for efficient, rapid, repeated heart extraction, I would start, as others have said, with a subdiaphragm approach, cutting a wide opening across most of the upper abdomen, using a wide sharp knife held horizontally, with one side as close as possible to the bottom front of the rib cage. This would allow access to the heart from both sides. After cutting that opening, I would plunge the knife upward just left of center in the chest cavity until the tip reached the area of the aorta attachment. At the same time I’d reach my other hand up the other side of the chest cavity and grab the heart with that hand. Once the heart was in my grasp, I’d sweep the blade (a blind cut) several times back and forth across the area of attachment while pulling down on the heart with my other hand. I’m sure it would take some refinement to work out the nuances, but with a good sharp obsidian knife I bet it could be done in less than 15 seconds. The danger for the operator would be the risk of cutting his own (the heart-holding) hand. Years back, I saw a Discovery or History show where they had a doc do just that. They had a realistic ballistic gel type torso complete with organs. He got two tries with an obsidian blade. By his second attempt, under the sternum, it was over in seconds. He said he’d only get better with practice, and it looked as if there was no reason he couldn’t immediately do a hundred more as it wasn’t particularly taxing. Placing the sacrificial person on a sort of rounded altar helped as it “opened up” the angel of attack under the sternum so the “priest” was working diagonally downward not horizontally. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/77 "2013-06-19T11:36:05Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > Because they were doing these sadistic acts long before Spain came into the picture. So were the Spanish, long before they encountered the Aztec. And you’ve failed to address the issue of continuity I raised. Genetic traits don’t just “go underground” for 500 years. So show us the history of flayings and decapitations in post-Conquest Mexico? ---
**Author:** ![matt357](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecd19e/32.png) [@matt357](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt357)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/78 "2013-06-20T07:40:42Z")
> [@drastic\_quench](#): > > Years back, I saw a Discovery or History show where they had a doc do just that. They had a realistic ballistic gel type torso complete with organs. He got two tries with an obsidian blade. By his second attempt, under the sternum, it was over in seconds. He said he’d only get better with practice, and it looked as if there was no reason he couldn’t immediately do a hundred more as it wasn’t particularly taxing. Placing the sacrificial person on a sort of rounded altar helped as it “opened up” the angel of attack under the sternum so the “priest” was working diagonally downward not horizontally. The problem is Ballistic gel is much softer than real human flesh and it dosen’t take into account things like ligaments, ribcage cartilage or the the ribcage itself. In real life it would take more like 45 seconds at least, maybe more. Those Discovery channel “reenactments” are more made for tv than made for realism. ---
**Author:** ![AaronX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7bcc69/32.png) [@AaronX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AaronX)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/79 "2013-06-20T09:04:12Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > The problem is Ballistic gel is much softer than real human flesh and it dosen’t take into account things like ligaments, ribcage cartilage or the the ribcage itself. In real life it would take more like 45 seconds at least, maybe more. Those Discovery channel “reenactments” are more made for tv than made for realism. Yeah, isn’t it meant to simulate meat at high speeds? It’s not meant to simulate friction, or electrical conductivity (I’m looking at you, Mythbusters), or cutting meat. Also, isn’t it translucent? ---
**Author:** ![drastic\_quench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e36b37/32.png) [@drastic\_quench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drastic_quench)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960/80 "2013-06-20T15:21:49Z")
> [@matt357](#): > > The problem is Ballistic gel is much softer than real human flesh and it dosen’t take into account things like ligaments, ribcage cartilage or the the ribcage itself. In real life it would take more like 45 seconds at least, maybe more. Those Discovery channel “reenactments” are more made for tv than made for realism. This one did. It was not a block of just gel. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/aztec-human-sacrifice/660960.md?page=5)