# \[b\]Alice\_in\_Wonderland, you can't be serious **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 26, 2004, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218 "2004-02-26T02:09:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_B.Goode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Johnny\_B.Goode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_B.Goode)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/21 "2004-02-26T18:08:13Z")
> [@leenmi](#): > > Even if Canada attacked someone (which is unlikely, I grant you), I think the US would say “It’s Canada. They must have had a reason. Let’s go shoot somebody.” As much as politicians like to express things in such terms and it also simplifies matters greatly to the common person, I don’t think it is accurate to think of nations as friends in the same way people are. Looking at Iraq or Afghanistan, if I was say, the UK or Australia, and one of my good friends was the US, I would have been with him all the way, sleeves rolled-up and ready for action. Politicians in the UK and Australia liked to paint their reasons for supporting the US lead actions in this light because it was easy for everyone to understand and empathise with. The problem is, I think that once this analogy is extended beyond individuals to larger groups, interests within the group begin to take precedence over interests of other groups. Extend this further to nations, and I no longer believe that the analogy of friendship holds at all in any meaningful way. Nations that are allies work towards mutually beneficial, demonstrable and usually rational goals. Friendships are primarily emotional. I hold loyalty for my friends beyond what I calculate to be the expected return for my actions. If Canada (or Western Europe, Australia, Japan, Taiwan or South Korea) was threatened or engaged in some conflict, the US would weigh up the pros and cons of being involved and how they might be involved and the preceived consequences. I don’t think anything other than that can be assumed. ---
**Author:** ![gluteus\_maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f17d59/32.png) [@gluteus\_maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gluteus_maximus)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/22 "2004-02-26T18:26:12Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > The only way tanks could get to the border of Canada without going through the US first would be over the polar ice cap. The US is doing everything it can to melt the polar ice cap. > > So no worries, Canada. We got your back. What he meant to say was: So no worries, Canada. You’ve got our oil. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/23 "2004-02-26T18:39:39Z")
Wow, I’ve never been pitted before. I think **leenmi** , that you have taken my statement out of context - allow me to elaborate. I think everyone in Canada knows that if we were attacked and the US came to our aid, it would be because in was in the US’s best interest to do so. Sorry, but the current US administration is just not particularly benevolent when it comes to Canada - Bush didn’t even have the good sense to thank it’s largest trade partner when we came to the aid of the US on 9-11 until reminded by his father - guess what - I don’t think we’re a huge concern of his. Obviously, if US interests were threatened Bush would run in with guns blazing and a threat on Canada would, theoretically be a threat on the US; however, no one here is deluding themselves that the current US administration gives a flying fuck about Canada beyond what it means to themselves. **THAT** was my point. I would also like to point out that I’m speaking about the US _ADMINISTRATION_, as opposed to it’s citizens as individuals. I have much more faith in the humanity of the average American citizen than I do in the current administration. **AD’s** rant that these cuts are a threat to the US is absurd in the extreme. Canada’s military spending is completely meaningless to the US– even if we increased our spending 10 fold, it will make no difference whatsoever to the security of the USA. North America only needs one massive powerhouse and the US has chosen to adopt that roll – Canada’s military resources are much better spent doing the peacekeeping missions that we do and have traditionally done. Furthermore, Canada _HAS_ met it’s NATO obligations just fine, thankyouverymuch. At a time when we fail to meet those obligations, those from NATO are free to criticize at will. At this point, **AD** getting his panties in a wad over proposed cuts to the Canadian military is ridiculous. He accuses Canada of being arrogant and somehow manages to miss the irony of his accusation – pot, meet kettle. In recent history, Canada has done a lot more helping out of the US than the US has done for Canada – nice of **AD** to ignore that and whine about the fact that in an assault on North America, the US is going to have to play the biggest role. No shit. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/24 "2004-02-27T04:01:16Z")
Sorry if this contributes nothing new, but I was sufficiently irritated by many of the Canadian posts in the other thread (including, I’m sorry, dear **Alice\_** , whom I like) that I had to offer at least this: Are you crazy? We’re not all bastards even if the Pres is. Out of good will to our northern neighbor, _of course_ we’d defend her. I’m honestly stunned this is doubted by anybody with any seriousness. But even if our generally honorable character in a matter like this is doubted, we’ve got an even stronger reason to defend her against attack: the shared border that’s been mentioned so many times. Think of how much money we save not having to actually defend that border (or the one with Mexico). We’d instantly go to war against Canada’s or Mexico’s hypothetical attackers for purely selfish reasons alone; those two peaceful borders are among our most valuable assets. I’m intrigued by the line of thinking that even if Canada were to increase her military by 1000%, its force would still be a drop in the bucket compared to that of our own. I was inclinded to be sympathetic to **Airman** ’s rant, but whoever made that point has scored one as well. But if y’all are going to leave the **entire** defense of the continent to us, maybe you ought to pay us a (nominal) tribute. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/25 "2004-02-27T04:25:29Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Under any other administration, I would have no doubt at all that we would rush to aid Canada in any sort of military confrontation. Under _this_ administration… I just don’t know. I’m pretty sure we would, because turning our back on our closest (in every sense of the word) ally would be stupid and evil beyond words. If any US president _would_ abandon Canada in a time of need, it’d be this one. But I seriously doubt even George W. would stoop so low. _Must_ you members of the Brotherhood of Bush Bashers insert drivel like this into _every_ thread? It grows exceeding tiresome. First he’s a war-monger. Now he’d pass up a perfectly good excuse to go to war. Make up your minds, why don’t ya’? ---
**Author:** ![asrivkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9d8465/32.png) [@asrivkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asrivkin)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/26 "2004-02-27T05:05:07Z")
> [@masonite](#): > > But if y’all are going to leave the **entire** defense of the continent to us, maybe you ought to pay us a (nominal) tribute. 😃 [civ] We demand 50o, because our words are backed up with NUCLEAR WEAPONS! [/civ] ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/27 "2004-02-27T05:41:00Z")
You know, as an interested but unbiased Australian friend, I think I should point out a few statistical realities about invading foreign countries. Every where I’ve ever read states that the rule of thumb to overwhelmingly occupy and subdue a foreign country against her will requires an invasion force ratio of roughly one soldier per 15 members of civilian population. Yes, it’s true that in Iraq at the moment, the invasion force of some 150,000 (all totaled amongst contributing forces) is way out of kilter with the Iraqi population of 22 million, however, the regular drip drip drip of geurilla insurgency reflects the inherent shortcomings of too few men on the ground. Consider a more realistic example of Germany’s efforts in Norway in WW2. At the war’s end, some 300,000 German soldiers were expatriated - but it’s accepted wisdom that at least another 100-150 thousand were in Norway prior to 1945 and they kinda dribbled out during the last 3 months. My point here is that now you’re starting to see the amazing numbers of men and supplies which are needed to occupy a relatively small country such as Norway for just 5 years - and apparently guerrilla activity was just wild during that time. Accordingly, let’s all take off our “hysteria hats” for a second, and put on our “reality strategic hats” instead. Are you starting to get an idea of the sort of logistical magnitude required to take on Canada, and totally subdue her? I mean seriously… think about the sort of invasion forces you’d be talking about to make it even remotely successful. You would easily be talking about an invasion force on a par with d-day. And where would you land? Let alone, where would you commence your embarkation point from? All of these issues would show up like massive bright red flags on satellite surveillance. It would be an utterly impossible thing to organise in secret. Hence, the next question is, who would be so crazy as to launch a military attack on Canada, in the knowledge that anything less than an invasion force of 300,000 men is going to ultimately fail? To attack Canada with just airborne assaults would be madness. The ability of the Canadian airforce alone would probably rise to the occasion. Sure, some madman might unleash a volly of missiles, but ultimately they would achieve the same effect as Saddam’s volley’s towards Israel in 1991 - a lot of terror certainly, but almost zero in terms of military gain. Possibly, a nation-state might decide to launch a series of nuclear warheads purely out of hatred and spite, but the sheer threat to the US from radio-active fallout born via the wind would result in the aggressor nation becoming toast within 30 minutes. Ergo, the final arguement that potentially the heathen hordes might descend down through Alaska across from Siberia is also pretty unlikely too. That in effect would be an attack on US Soil, which would be even greater madness. And realistically, it would be icredibly easy to defend, and further it essentially means that Russia would be declaring war on North America and I utterly can’t see that ever happening - like ever. Nope, I’m sorry **Airman** - I love ya to death and I respect your philosophy’s to the 'nth degree, but in this instance the anxiety is unfounded. Canada is definitely in an infinitely safer neighbourhood than my country is - as evidenced by the Bali Bombing of 2002. Honestly, I rather think the USA should be seriously considering doing everything in her power to raise the general wealth per capita of Mexico to bring it up to the level of her northern neighbours in Canada. A wealthy, prosperous Mexico is infinitely more in the USA’s interests than demanding that Canada spend more on HER military. The threat is from the south, guys. Not from the north. ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/28 "2004-02-27T06:56:58Z")
> [@asrivkin](#): > > [civ] > We demand 50o, because our words are backed up with NUCLEAR WEAPONS! > [/civ] Who let Gandhi in here? Interestingly, Canadians are Industrious and Humorous and start the game with Hockey and Moose Cultivation. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/29 "2004-02-27T07:21:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Canadians are Industrious and Humorous and start the game with Hockey and Moose Cultivation. Getting moose properly cultivated is _hard_, too. I’ve got a bull moose that hangs out in my backyard, and I’ve been trying to get that fella to learn the finer points of oenophilia and an appreciation of J.S. Bach, but the closest I’ve been able to get is those nights that he drinks a bucket of Molson’s and belts out weird ungulate versions of Bachman Turner Overdrive classics. Fucking moose. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/30 "2004-02-27T08:16:17Z")
> [@John Carter of Mars](#): > > _Must_ you members of the Brotherhood of Bush Bashers insert drivel like this into _every_ thread? It grows exceeding tiresome. “Do not be angry with me if I tell you the truth.” –Socrates > [@](#): > > First he’s a war-monger. Now he’d pass up a perfectly good excuse to go to war. Make up your minds, why don’t ya’? Seems perfectly consistent to me once you shift your POV slightly: 1. Iraq’s got oil. Huzzah, invade! 2. Canada doesn’t got oil? Screw 'em. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/31 "2004-02-27T08:23:04Z")
That’s right, Yankee. No oil up here… :glances around nervously: Okay, okay! You can have Alberta! Just leave the rest of us in peace! Keep your nasty old Zero Tolerance out of B.C., eh? ---
**Author:** ![Doomtrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/0ea827/32.png) [@Doomtrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doomtrain)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/32 "2004-02-27T08:24:30Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Bachman Turner Overdrive classics. > > Fucking moose. [Homer voice]Play Takin’ Care of Business![/HV] “We just played that!” ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/33 "2004-02-27T12:21:33Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > “Do not be angry with me if I tell you the truth.” > –Socrates > Seems perfectly consistent to me once you shift your POV slightly: > > 1. Iraq’s got oil. Huzzah, invade! > 2. Canada doesn’t got oil? Screw 'em. **rjung** , [you couldn’t be further from the truth.](http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm) As usual. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/34 "2004-02-27T17:53:49Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > Okay, okay! You can have Alberta! Just leave the rest of us in peace! Listen bub, if yer gonna be offering up sacrificial provinces, you best start with yer own. Besides - Klien wants to make Alberta it’s own country anyway. I think it’s because he really wants to be King Ralph. Oh, and **masonite** , I’m assuming when you said this: > [@](#): > > We’re not all bastards even if the Pres is. it’s because you missed where I said this: > [@](#): > > I would also like to point out that I’m speaking about the US ADMINISTRATION, as opposed to it’s citizens as individuals. I have much more faith in the humanity of the average American citizen than I do in the current administration. I have the highest respect for Americans as a people, and America as a country. The moronic monkey-faced jackass that was appointed in the gong show that was your last presidential election is another matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/35 "2004-02-27T20:15:26Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > The moronic monkey-faced jackass that was appointed in the gong show that was your last presidential election is another matter entirely. You’re comparing our last presidential election to the gong show? You can’t be serious. It was the highest quality three ring circus. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/36 "2004-02-27T20:25:56Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > You’re comparing our last presidential election to the gong show? You can’t be serious. It was the highest quality three ring circus. I remember shortly after your election, Rick Mercer - a Canadian comedian - was in Florida trying to convince people that in Canada, voters choose whom they’re voting for by depositing either a pine cone or a piece of birch bark into the ballot box. The majority of respondents thought it seemed like a much less confusing way of doing things. The mind reels. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/37 "2004-02-27T20:41:41Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > **rjung** , [you couldn’t be further from the truth.](http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/rankings/crudebycountry.htm) As usual. Very good, **Doors,** you’ve found Google. :rolleyes: Now let me educate you on the difference between _imports_ (what you’re bringing in now) and _reserves_ (what you can get in the future): > [@](#): > > [From **World Crude Oil and Natural Gas Reserves**](http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/iea/table81.html) > > Canada oil reserves: > > - 4.9 billion barrels (Oil and Gas Journal) > - 5.4 billion barrels (World Oil) > > Iraq oil reserves: > > - 112.5 billion barrels (Oil and Gas Journal) > - 115.0 billion barrels (World Oil) Now, 112.5 is far, _far_ greater than 4.9, as any fool can plainly see. Even if the estimates for Iraq were wildly optimistic and inflated by a factor of 5x, my assertion still holds. The only question left now is, do _you_ see it? ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/38 "2004-02-27T20:56:14Z")
I see what you’re saying, and I understand where you’re coming from. But it was your contention that Canada has no oil, which is absolutely incorrect. You said nothing about reserves. If that was the point you were making, why didn’t you make it the first time? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/39 "2004-02-27T21:09:54Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Listen bub, if yer gonna be offering up sacrificial provinces, you best start with yer own. Besides - Klien wants to make Alberta it’s own country anyway. Oh, come on-- admit it… You Albertans would be right at home in the Union. You already have the rodeos, cowboy boots & hats, the zeal for beef, and the oil industry, with its attendant mystical reverance of propane and propane accessories. Of course, it _would_ suck for us British Columbians, since Canada’s decent Arts & Culture doesn’t really extend past Alberta’s western border. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2004, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218/40 "2004-02-27T21:47:34Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > You Albertans would be right at home in the Union. Nope. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-alice_in_wonderland-you-cant-be-serious/231218.md?page=3)