# \[b\]Interested Observer\[/b\] and other vaccine disinformers: ARGH! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971 "2009-02-15T18:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/1 "2009-02-15T18:13:23Z")
I was going to post the following response in the [Gardasil thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10826449#post10826449) that spawned it, but by the time it came to click post I realized that it was a bit more appropriate here, weak for a Pit post though it may be. So here it is: **Interested** , while this thread has indeed played itself out, it is hard to let your last odd perversion of reality go without comment. You are _complaining_ that _somehow_ “vaccines in general” have “melted down” this thread"??? Please review the thread. You will note that comments were all on the subject of Gardasil and Gardasil alone until post#15 when _someone_\* hijacked the thread with comments of "I don’t vaccinate at all … " etc. That bait not taken the next contribution was disinformation about VAERS and DTP in post#17. A little nibble so in post#21 the expansion into talking about chicken pox, MMR, and the ignarrogant “I know more about this subject, ALL aspects of it, than you can imagine …” Amazingly when your untrue statements are corrected and you are called out on stating such false crap you bemoan how this thread got hijacked and how you do not have time to “fill in” such uniformed people as the rest of us, who do not appreciate “the obvious”. Wotta surprise. Thank you for illustrating to any lurkers the nature and the idiocy and the lies of the anti-vaccine advocates. If it wasn’t that kids have died as a result of the misinformation that your ilk spew I’d just ignore the whole group of you. As it is I cannot ethically do that. The willful ignorance and knowing lies that you and those like you promote cause real harm. \*Yeah, that would be … uh … you. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/2 "2009-02-15T18:35:23Z")
How timely. The local Catholic high school [has warned parents about a possible case of the mumps.](http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/02/trinity_high_school_warns_pare.html). The school claims that all students are current with their vaccinations, but that doesn’t mean that all students have had them. The fear of outbreaks like these is exactly why vaccination is such a no-brainer. The odds of a lasting side effect from a vaccine aren’t very high at all, but the lasting damage caused by something like mumps is too severe and too nontrivial to risk it. It doesn’t take a scientist to know that mumps causes all sorts of nasty lasting damage, including sterility caused by testicular involvement and meningitis. Having already lost one child to a preventable case of meningitis, I’m really not willing to go through that again. I’m especially not willing to risk my son’s life on the say-so of a bunch of noodlebrains who rely on my vaccinating my child so their precious snowflakes don’t get sick. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/3 "2009-02-15T19:51:48Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > A little nibble so in post#21 the expansion into talking about chicken pox, MMR, and the ignarrogant “I know more about this subject, ALL aspects of it, than you can imagine …” “Ignarrogant”. Beautifully descriptive. Having followed the activities of antivaxers and in particular the autism-vaccine “controversy” in recent years, I’m often amazed at how people with such ignorance of history and the basics of infectious disease and immunology judge themselves to be superior to experts in the field, based on their time spent Googling the rantings of other antivaxers and selective bits of flawed and debunked studies. This is the sort of “research” that **Interested Observer** cites in talking down to the rest of us (and what we can expect from the book she is supposedly writing). When you start out with a set of preconceived notions, reinforced continually by the shared prejudices, talking points and cut 'n paste quotes of fellow believers lifted from sites drenched in antivax loonery, you wind up immunizing yourself from any intrusions of reason. **Interested Observer** , for all her hostility to vaccines, has effectively vaccinated herself against reality. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/4 "2009-02-15T20:37:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > **Interested Observer** , for all her hostility to vaccines, has effectively vaccinated herself against reality. _snerk_ I have to say, her username/pet topic combo is hysterical, too. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/5 "2009-02-15T22:04:14Z")
Vaccination or no is quickly becoming one of my favourite topics to read. Read, but under no circumstances participate in. Same as with NDEs where, curiously, **Interested Observer** is on the side decrying the giant conspiracy amongst the science community. How strange and unexpected. Ah, the joys of the carnival without having to pay! ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/6 "2009-02-15T22:55:59Z")
**Interested Obsever** illustrates one of major problems with the anti-vax movement. To someone who hasn’t been following this debate her cites look oh so convincing. Why here’s the Geiers and an M.D. degree. There’s Barbara Loe Fisher and her oh so well put together website. There’s the stuff on **Mothering** that all looks so sciency and sound. There’s David Kirby and his book published by a major league publisher not some rinky dink operation somewhere. And then it sounds rational, right? If you eliminate diseases and nature . . . why there’s sure to be backlash somewhere. Besides my great aunt’s cousin’s uncle’s first wife had polio and she’s fine. Yes she wears a brace but she’s not autistic or anything of the sort. Why my grandmother remembers measles. She says it was fun! They had parties and everything. Same with mumps. Hey even the experts aren’t sure about this. They can’t promise you that vaccines are 100% percent effective or that autism isn’t somehow caused by vaccines. They’re not sure so why should we be sure? My best friend’s third cousin’s niece is autistic and she swears it was vaccines. How can you discount her testimony you great big child hating meanie you!!!??? Vaccines have not been completely tested. Yeah I know there’s no smallpox but um better sanitation was responsible for that. Yup. Oh and cervical cancer really isn’t so bad. Besides I read a news report somewhere that lots of people dropped dead from the vaccine and aren’t they making lots of money from it? GAH. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/7 "2009-02-16T10:42:04Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > My best friend’s third cousin’s niece is autistic and she swears it was vaccines. How can you discount her testimony you great big child hating meanie you!!!??? Of course we hate children - why do you think we want them to get stabbed with needles? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/8 "2009-02-16T13:20:31Z")
> [@Claptree](#): > > Vaccination or no is quickly becoming one of my favourite topics to read. Read, but under no circumstances participate in. Same as with NDEs where, curiously, **Interested Observer** is on the side decrying the giant conspiracy amongst the science community. If you are fascinated by the idea of NDEs, naturally you’d support not vaccinating in favor of the return of preventable infectious diseases. It’d mean lots more material for the true believers to work with. Then there’s the parent quoted in a news story who disliked vaccines because they removed a human element for children - “the soulfulness of being ill”. In this mommy’s world measles doesn’t mean a week or two of being sick as hell with risk of encephalitis or other potentially severe complications - it’s a a lovely nurturing reflective time. Strange what adults are so willing to wish on kids these days. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/9 "2009-02-16T14:12:37Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Then there’s the parent quoted in a news story who disliked vaccines because they removed a human element for children - “the soulfulness of being ill”. In this mommy’s world measles doesn’t mean a week or two of being sick as hell with risk of encephalitis or other potentially severe complications - it’s a a lovely nurturing reflective time. > > Strange what adults are so willing to wish on kids these days. Most people today have no clue what a lot of the preventable diseases are like, for obvious reasons. Somehow for some people that translates into: “nobody’s getting _really_ sick so why should we trust ‘western’ science to stab our kids with ‘chemicals’”. Never mind that these are exactly the same types that’ll ingest pretty much anything “organic” in a jar from your average Chinese/Herbalist/Nature “health” shop in favor of seeing a doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/10 "2009-02-16T14:52:21Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Then there’s the parent quoted in a news story who disliked vaccines because they removed a human element for children - “the soulfulness of being ill”. In this mommy’s world measles doesn’t mean a week or two of being sick as hell with risk of encephalitis or other potentially severe complications - it’s a a lovely nurturing reflective time. I’m not sure how it works in the states, but in Sweden you can get paid while being home with your sick child. I’d like to see that privilege withdrawn for people who refuse to vaccinate their kids. If you’re taking steps to ensure your kids are sick more, you’d better damn well pay the price. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/11 "2009-02-16T15:41:04Z")
The researcher who sparked the ‘vaccines cause autism’ scare [manipulated the data, only used a sample of 12 patients and now faces charges of serious professional misconduct.](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece) This caused a drop in measles innoculation, leading to 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2009, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/12 "2009-02-16T23:24:41Z")
> [@glee](#): > > The researcher who sparked the ‘vaccines cause autism’ scare [manipulated the data, only used a sample of 12 patients and now faces charges of serious professional misconduct.](http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article5683671.ece) > > This caused a drop in measles innoculation, leading to 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease. You’re about three weeks late on that scoop, you know. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/13 "2009-02-17T00:24:35Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > **Interested Obsever** illustrates one of major problems with the anti-vax movement. > > To someone who hasn’t been following this debate her cites look oh so convincing. Why here’s the Geiers and an M.D. degree. There’s Barbara Loe Fisher and her oh so well put together website. There’s the stuff on **Mothering** that all looks so sciency and sound. There’s David Kirby and his book published by a major league publisher not some rinky dink operation somewhere. And because of that, when people do hear the other side they tend towards the Argument to Moderation or the [Middle Ground Fallacy](http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/middle-ground.html): “Because there is debate, the truth _must_ be in between the two extremes, despite what the evidence says.” It is a very cheap, very lazy way to appear ‘balanced’ that actually gives a huge amount of weight to marginal positions that can’t really stand on their own. If you are still on the fence about whether the Middle Ground Fallacy is a fallacy, consider this: Imagine two positons, A and B. According to the Middle Ground Fallacy, the truth must be C, a point midway between the two. Then comes point D, somewhere off to one extreme past B. According to the Middle Ground Fallacy, the truth must be between between C and D, which happens to be B. Add a point E and all of a sudden the truth is point D after all, because D is between B and E. Keep going and you merrily let the Middle Ground Fallacy lead you off a cliff into utter, mindless extremism. That is why I get so angry when mainstream news sources give time to loonies. They don’t deserve it and, by the Middle Ground Fallacy, they use it to pull the public debate towards their otherwise indefensible positions. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/14 "2009-02-17T00:57:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > You’re about three weeks late on that scoop, you know. I thought it was worth repeating. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/15 "2009-02-17T07:58:18Z")
This is perhaps not the place to ask this, but it is something I’ve wondered. I’m old, so all I got as a child for vaccinations was (I think) polio, small pox, whooping cough and diptheria? Then eventually tetnus. All of those just once. I had the mumps & chicken pox but never measles, tho I did know lots of kids that had measles - the soft kind, whatever that means. And one kid who had whooping cough. Noone died. Now children get like 20 million vaccinations - why is this? More diseases that they have a vaccine for? Some research that says that one shot per disease isn’t enough? I’d be scared to death to have a kid these days. It also seems odd to me that as the canine community is moving away from annual boosters as not necessary and in some cases harmful, the human community is moving towards more and more vaccinations. Oh, and no worries that I am or will be a anti-vaxer - I have no kids and never will! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 8:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/16 "2009-02-17T08:12:40Z")
For what it’s worth, I wish that the anti-vax nutters were held legally responsible for not only giving out fraudulent medical advice, but giving out potentially lethal fraudulent medical advice. Throw the damn book at them. “Conspiracy to commit” should, unless I miss my guess, offer a good jumping off point to let these irresponsible, dangerous bastards be properly dealt with. I don’t see much difference between someone whose advice causes an outbreak due to children not getting Meningococcal vaccinations, and someone who tells a kid to stick a knife into an electrical outlet. ---
**Author:** ![Claptree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/58f4c7/32.png) [@Claptree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claptree)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/17 "2009-02-17T11:29:42Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Now children get like 20 million vaccinations - why is this? More diseases that they have a vaccine for? Some research that says that one shot per disease isn’t enough? I’d be scared to death to have a kid these days. It also seems odd to me that as the canine community is moving away from annual boosters as not necessary and in some cases harmful, the human community is moving towards more and more vaccinations. > > Oh, and no worries that I am or will be a anti-vaxer - I have no kids and never will! From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > By the 1960s, children routinely received five vaccines, for protection against (diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and smallpox), and as many as eight shots by two years of age. As of 2007[update], the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC) now recommends vaccination against at least sixteen diseases. By two years of age, U.S. children receive as many as 24 vaccine injections, and might receive up to five shots during one visit to the doctor. The use of combination vaccine products means that, as of 2006[update], the United Kingdom immunisation programme consists of just 11 injections by the age of two years and a further three injections by the time of leaving school. So yes, the number of diseases vaccinated against has increased. ETA: Also, from what I understand, vaccinations and booster shots require less of the actual vaccine for more protection than just one big shot, but I may very well be wrong on that. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/18 "2009-02-17T12:01:18Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Now children get like 20 million vaccinations - why is this? More diseases that they have a vaccine for? Some research that says that one shot per disease isn’t enough? I’d be scared to death to have a kid these days. It also seems odd to me that as the canine community is moving away from annual boosters as not necessary and in some cases harmful, the human community is moving towards more and more vaccinations. Somebody answered it (more vaccines, not necessarily more boosters). In terms of the animals, it HAS been found a link between increased vaccination and incidence of certain tumors, particularly in the cat. The problem is not necessarily the vaccine itself, but the adjuvant used to increased the potency of it. Decreased vaccination with those vaccines with adjuvant, or a return to annual vaccinations using a non-adjuvant vaccine are possible solutions. As a rule, though, they’re moving towards less annual boosters, yes. Just remember, many of the cat and dog (and other animals) vaccines are targeted against more than one disease (in large animals maybe 8 or 9), so their load may be more than what humans get. And in many places, animals going to the vet to get the rabies vaccine (which is a public health concern) is the only time they see a vet. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/19 "2009-02-17T13:39:07Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I’m old, so all I got as a child for vaccinations was (I think) polio, small pox, whooping cough and diptheria? Then eventually tetnus. All of those just once… > > Now children get like 20 million vaccinations - why is this? More diseases that they have a vaccine for? Most of this has already been answered - you either got at least 5 shots under 2 or your parents didn’t bring you in for the shots you were advised to get; most of the increase has been in more diseases protected (over my mere 20 year career we’ve seen the virtual disappearance of meningitis in younger children due to the addition of vaccines for Hib and pneumococcus for example, and a tremendous decrease in hospitalizations for dehydration associated with rotavirus infection). That said, for completeness’ sake, there have been a few boosters added: a second MMR and Varivax have been added before Kindergarten and pertussis has been added to what was dT alone after age 11. The only annuals are flu vaccines and that is to a large degree because each year’s bugs are different strains. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/20 "2009-02-17T14:27:01Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > …(over my mere 20 year career we’ve seen the virtual disappearance of meningitis in younger children due to the addition of vaccines for Hib and pneumococcus for example… Hib meningitis [just made a comeback in Minnesota](http://children.webmd.com/vaccines/news/20090123/hib-outbreak-kills-unvaccinated-child) thanks to lack of vaccination. Several cases and one death (in an unvaccinated child). _"“Parents who wondered whether Hib vaccination is really necessary need to know the disease is still around,” Schuchat said. “It is a very dangerous disease and we have a vaccine that can protect children. The situation where community protection kept unimmunized kids at low risk of disease does not appear to be holding.”_ > [@curlcoat](#): > > I’d be scared to death to have a kid these days. I’d certainly be very concerned about the effect antivax scares are having on herd immunity, and the increasing odds that my child could contract a serious preventable illness despite being vaccinated (no vaccine is 100% effective, and when overall (herd) immunity declines below a certain point, these diseases can start spreading in epidemic form again). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971.md?page=2)