# \[b\]Interested Observer\[/b\] and other vaccine disinformers: ARGH! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971 "2009-02-15T18:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/181 "2009-02-23T23:55:01Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Why I am not surprised **MsRobyn’s** sarcasm (like so much of this thread) went right over your head? > > 😉 Could be because I am not interested in developmental disorders. Or it could be because I am a mature adult who doesn’t assume negatives until proven otherwise. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/182 "2009-02-24T01:15:40Z")
I once knew an autistic horse who was allergic to peanuts, _and he’d never been vaccinated_. That should prove to any mature adult who’s still listening that vaccines are safe. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/183 "2009-02-24T01:20:49Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Could be because I am not interested in developmental disorders. Or it could be because I am a mature adult who doesn’t assume negatives until proven otherwise. > > 😉 Mature adults accept science and reason. When proven wrong they admit it and move on. Vaccines are not a problem for nearly all children despite what you have mistakenly repeatedly and idiotically implied in this thread. Those that are at risk from vaccines face even greater risks from non-vaccinators. Said non-vaccinators willfully punch holes in herd immunity and ultimately help bring back dangerous and infectious illnesses because they are not mature adults capable of understanding basic science. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/184 "2009-02-24T01:32:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I once knew an autistic horse who was allergic to peanuts, _and he’d never been vaccinated_. > > That should prove to any mature adult who’s still listening that vaccines are safe. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/185 "2009-02-24T03:29:25Z")
> [@LavenderBlue](#): > > Mature adults accept science and reason. When proven wrong they admit it and move on. > > Vaccines are not a problem for nearly all children despite what you have mistakenly repeatedly and idiotically implied in this thread. Those that are at risk from vaccines face even greater risks from non-vaccinators. Said non-vaccinators willfully punch holes in herd immunity and ultimately help bring back dangerous and infectious illnesses because they are not mature adults capable of understanding basic science. Sigh. I knew I shouldn’t have bothered to respond to you, since there is no point in engaging willful snotty idiots. So, unless you actually manage to post something that isn’t insulting blather, I shall go back to ignoring you, **Jackmannii** and apparently, **wring**. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/186 "2009-02-24T03:41:16Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It was mentioned earlier - I was thinking along the lines of whether there are more severely allergic children due to genetics, vaccinations, hyper cleanliness, etc. It really isn’t all that common to give babies peanuts - at least it wasn’t when I was growing up (unless there were peanuts in formula??) - so why would they need to be exposed to them early on now in order to try to prevent an allergy? > [@](#): > > But I might be a better example than I expected - it is not unlikely that, without modern medicine, I would not have survived childhood. And would not, therefore, have grown up to be a cat-allergic adult. This has nothing to do with the number of vaccinations I received, it is an artifact of how vaccination and other medical practices save lives. I’m not sure what that has to do with the subject. I am certainly not anti-modern medicine. Had an MRI just last week. > [@](#): > > Plus, think about it - people nowadays eat an enormously more varied diet than they did even fifty years ago. Do they, in the US? My diet isn’t all that much different now than it was when I was a child, except I started eating more ( and more authentic ) Mexican when I moved to California. > [@](#): > > The point is that there isn’t any evidence that multiple vaccinations are causing an epidemic of food allergies. There wasn’t any evidence that they were causing auto immune problems in dogs until someone thought to research it either. I really don’t understand why there is all of this, sometimes quite hostile, rejection of the _idea_. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/187 "2009-02-24T03:57:21Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > I’m not a doctor, but my son’s pediatrician told me it takes three shots to bring the child up to the full protection level. The second shot is given at least one month after the first, and the third is given six months after the second. The immunity lasts about 25 years. > > A “booster” shot is given years after the initial dose as kind of a “reminder” because immunity goes down as time goes on. That isn’t what I meant. I was wondering if there was anything different in the three HepB shots, or if it was the same shot three times. If it is the same thing three times, then it is no different than essentially getting a booster two times after the first one. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/188 "2009-02-24T04:03:45Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > That isn’t what I meant. I was wondering if there was anything different in the three HepB shots, or if it was the same shot three times. If it is the same thing three times, then it is no different than essentially getting a booster two times after the first one. The first one was not good enough at getting the desired response from the body. The second and third one insure that the immunity takes and that there are enough memory cells (that will hang around and reproduce equal memory cells that will produce the same antibodies) over a long period of time. Obviously there are some vaccines (rabies in dogs and cats, for example) in which one shot provides longer immunity (in that case some are approved for up to 3-4 years). ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/189 "2009-02-24T04:05:02Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I shall go back to ignoring you, **Jackmannii** and apparently, **wring**. I shall try to bear the disappointment. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGrenze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dbc845/32.png) [@KarlGrenze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGrenze)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/190 "2009-02-24T04:11:48Z")
Just to make it clear: In many cases, just one shot will NOT produce a long lasting effect. It will produce a response, it will prime, it will work somewhat, but it will not produce the type of long lasting effect that is wanted. Why? Age that it is given, type of vaccine, type of disease, route of administration, type of response that is desired, etc. In other cases, just one shot with boosters once in a while will suffice. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/191 "2009-02-24T04:29:04Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > The idea of a vaccine is to give the immune system a large enough dose of the same antigen or antigens they would encounter in an infection, while at the same time NOT causing that disease. For example, a type of vaccine called Modified Live Vaccine is made from viruses/viral particles that have been modified (like the name says) so as to not cause the disease but elicit a response from the immune system. Killed vaccines are generally safer and contain “dead” viral particles. There are other types of vaccines, these are just the 2 basic ones. I am aware of that. Doesn’t seem to have anything to do with what I said about whether adding a bunch of vaccines to natural loads might be too much for a young immune system. > [@](#): > > The type of virus that influenza is, and the way it replicates inside the cell makes it easier to mutate and change its genomic sequence so as to alter its composition slightly enough that the vaccine is ineffective. Not to mention that there are numerous types of influenza viruses to begin with. If one type is targeted one year, another strain is still free and that is the one that replicates and causes disease. Ah. So we have always had multiple influenzas around? > [@](#): > > Sorry for that, your comment about how vaccines have been reduced both in numbers and times administered in dogs made me said that. The vaccines that have been reduced have been found ineffective or more regional than anything else (btw, Parainfluenza is still given in the combo shots, Bordatella is given annually in places that it is given). The only reduction in vaccines I was talking about in pets (dogs & cats) is boosters of DH2PL or some similar combo shot done every year, plus some reduction of use of bordatella and measles tho that is a minor side issue. > [@](#): > > BTW, vaccines are given in a “series” because it has been determined that there is either interference from the maternal antibodies (which would preclude formation of antibodies by the child/pup) or that even if there has been a response, it is still a weak one, and to get a better, longer lasting one, the animal/baby has to be given the vaccine again. Yes, I know. Seems to make more sense to wait to give the vaccine until the affects of maternal antibodies are past. > [@](#): > > In a booster, it is assumed that the animal already developed the good response, but that over time it declined. It is more of a wake up to the system to make more antibodies again. Unless, as was discovered, the response had not declined. Apparently, the only reason anyone thought that it was necessary to give boosters was because the vaccine companies thought it was a good idea. Would it be all that shocking if the companies that make human vaccines had done the same? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/192 "2009-02-24T04:43:48Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Except at some point, many children these days start having trouble with their immune systems and the question is - why? We could probably do a whole new thread on this topic alone, my .02 worth, Our technology is overcoming evolutionary pressures. Children who would have died a dozen times over as infants 50 years ago are being saved by the level of medical care we have available these days. Weak immune systems and life threatening allergies are not being selected out like they used to therefore they live to childbearing age and pass on those poor immune systems/allergies to their children. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/193 "2009-02-24T06:29:46Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh. I knew I shouldn’t have bothered to respond to you, since there is no point in engaging willful snotty idiots. So, unless you actually manage to post something that isn’t insulting blather, I shall go back to ignoring you, **Jackmannii** and apparently, **wring**. Ooooooh! Oooooh! Can I be ignored too!?! (Unlike **Jackmannii** I do not know of any horses with autism, but there is this ass in this thread who definitely has some mental disability … )🙂 Meanwhile simple answers to simple questions: [QUOTE=curlcoat] Unless, as was discovered, the response had not declined. Apparently, the only reason anyone thought that it was necessary to give boosters was because the vaccine companies thought it was a good idea. Would it be all that shocking if the companies that make human vaccines had done the same? [/quote] Perhaps not all that shocking if it was true, but it is not. The vaccine schedule was tested by measuring titres and responses in sample populations. When they have erred (and they have), it has been in underestimating the need for boosters. Hence the pertussis booster added later to the dT at age 11 to 14 and every ten years, the second Varivax and MMR vaccine several years after the first, etc. **Karl** is of course completely correct. A series of vaccines designed to get the titres and cellular response up to a protective level in the first place is called the primary series. Repeated doses later to refresh the response and prevent it from dipping below protective levels are called boosters. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/194 "2009-02-24T06:33:44Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > We could probably do a whole new thread on this topic alone, my .02 worth, Our technology is overcoming evolutionary pressures. Children who would have died a dozen times over as infants 50 years ago are being saved by the level of medical care we have available these days. Weak immune systems and life threatening allergies are not being selected out like they used to therefore they live to childbearing age and pass on those poor immune systems/allergies to their children. Yeah, human breeding stock just isn’t what it used to be! 😃 Seriously, I sometimes wonder what some parents were thinking when they decided to have their own children, given the genetic problems they have. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/195 "2009-02-24T07:32:15Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Sigh. I knew I shouldn’t have bothered to respond to you, since there is no point in engaging willful snotty idiots. So, unless you actually manage to post something that isn’t insulting blather, I shall go back to ignoring you, **Jackmannii** and apparently, **wring**. \ WARNING Do not reveal the names on your ignore list. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697065&postcount=13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697065&postcount=13) Lynn For the Straight Dope \ ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/196 "2009-02-24T07:42:30Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yeah, human breeding stock just isn’t what it used to be! 😃 Seriously, I sometimes wonder what some parents were thinking when they decided to have their own children, given the genetic problems they have. They were thinking “DAMN! The rubber broke!” or something similar. MY thoughts were “How could I get pregnant when we were using a condom AND contraceptive foam!1!11” ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/197 "2009-02-24T07:47:57Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > \ WARNING > > Do not reveal the names on your ignore list. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697065&postcount=13](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7697065&postcount=13) > > Lynn > For the Straight Dope > > \ I don’t have an ignore list, I just meant not bother to read what they post. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/198 "2009-02-24T07:55:34Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > They were thinking “DAMN! The rubber broke!” or something similar. MY thoughts were “How could I get pregnant when we were using a condom AND contraceptive foam!1!11” Naw, there are folks I’ve know who planned to have children even tho they had multiple genetic issues themselves as well as problems in their family tree. If there is a one in four chance their kids won’t get whatever, they just assume there’s no way it will happen to them. Or rather, their kids. The most ironic ones are the people who expect the puppy they buy for their asthmatic, diabetic kids from me to be perfect, with no health problems every… ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/199 "2009-02-24T08:02:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I don’t have an ignore list, I just meant not bother to read what they post. OK, warning rescinded. In the future, please be a little clearer, OK? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/200 "2009-02-24T12:29:27Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yeah, human breeding stock just isn’t what it used to be! 😃 Seriously, I sometimes wonder what some parents were thinking when they decided to have their own children, given the genetic problems they have. So given your own genetic predisposition for allergies, you are saying that your parents were irresponsible for having you and you should have never been born? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971.md?page=11)