# \[b\]Interested Observer\[/b\] and other vaccine disinformers: ARGH! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 15, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971 "2009-02-15T18:13:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/61 "2009-02-18T01:32:57Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, I think those things do help cause allergies (plus people who themselves have severe allergies having kids as the lady in the article). But I do think that if over vaccination is affecting immune systems, these kids would also be more likely to develop these allergies. > > The food allergies are the ones that I personally wonder about. I have a few true food allergies as well as several foods I don’t tolerate well. I’m also allergic to just about anything airborne. When I was tested at 25 and 35 years of age, both times I was told that since severe reactions to food allergies are rather rare, no work on a treatment/cure had been done as has been done with inhalant allergies. Now 15 years later we have a bunch of kids dieing from eating a tiny bit of peanuts? > > But then, raising kids in a bubble and giving score of vaccinations started at about the same time, so who is to say? Again, I _really_ glad I’m not trying to raise a kid! Actually, we don’t have a bunch of kids dying from eating tiny amounts of peanuts - death from peanut allergies (or any food related allergy) is somewhat more rare than dying of chicken pox. Not that peanut allergies aren’t serious - they CAN kill you. But the shock reaction from food allergies that is so dangerous can be stopped and you generally have some time to react to it - plus people who know they or their children have life threatening allergies can be hypervigilant - whereas viruses must run their course - and you can’t tell someone is contagious with measles. The thing about vaccinations is that even if the virus didn’t take in you, herd immunity provides protection - people with immuno suppression disorders depend on this - your chances of running into someone with measles is pretty slim. But the more people that don’t vaccinate, the higher it becomes. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/62 "2009-02-18T01:33:02Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > This was circa 1977. (Is 32 years close enough to 35?) Apparently my ability to do math is impared. I had the chicken pox in 1963, as did my brother who was a year younger than me. I had two other brothers who were 10 and 11 years younger than me and I don’t remember them getting it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/63 "2009-02-18T01:39:18Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Yes, I’m well aware that theories that are different than mainstream are not really tolerated in here. Theories are tolerated just fine. What you have is a hypothesis that ignores the facts that have been pointed out to you repeatedly. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/64 "2009-02-18T01:49:09Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Definitely not just following a pediatricians advice blindly. So lemme get this straight: when it comes to vaccines for kids (i.e. a highly important medical issue for kids), you think that it would be _bad_ to follow the advice of a _pediatrician_ (the expert on medical issues for kids)? … … … Because, you know, look at a couple websites, vaccinate your dogs, and suddenly you’re more of an expert than a pediatrician? What, do you think medical school is a diploma mill? You think that they haven’t already looked at the research, and much more thoroughly than you have? News Flash! We already know that these vaccinations will prevent these diseases. That is, your child is _assuredly significantly_ less likely to die or suffer permanent injuries if you vaccinate. Meanwhile, the threat is…what? A tenuous link to allergies that could easily be explained by hundreds of other factors? Autism, which has no link outside of a fraudulent study and a small group of mothers who also have no medical training? Your rose-colored memories that, because you personally didn’t die from these diseases, they must not be that deadly after all? How could you possibly think that the risks of vaccinating (a slight and tenuous chance of autism, a slight and tenuous chance of allergies) outweigh the risks of NOT vaccinating (death, incredible pain for an extended amount of time, permanent disabilities)? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/65 "2009-02-18T01:49:27Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > OTOH, I think this thread is talking more about _first time vaccination series_ in kids. Which is why I looked up for the cite about first time vaccination in dogs, to, you know, make it comparable. It was me that was confused, most likely due to the fact I haven’t had to get vaccinations for kids. Looking at the charts and what has been posted here, it appeared to me that the children were getting multiple vaccinations for the same diseases, like getting multiple MMR shots. No? Those 37 or whatever it was shots before the age of six were for 37 different things? Ick > [@](#): > > And why I mentioned that in animals, they’re moving away not from using more vaccines, but from more boosters. They are also moving away from the number of things dogs (particularly puppies) are vaccinated for. Used to be, back when I first started in dogs, that all pups were vaccinated for distemper, hepatitis and lepto, then we added parvo, then corona. Then came early shots for measles, shots for bordatella, parainfluenza and I can’t even remember what else - the total load was 8. Now corona has been dropped by most dog people, many don’t bother with bordatella or parainfluenza, and new studies indicate that lepto vaccines aren’t very safe so some folks aren’t doing that either. It all depends on where you live and what you figure your dogs will be exposed to. > [@](#): > > BTW, a recent article (Lack of association between repeated vaccination and thyroiditis in laboratory Beagles. Scott-Moncrieff JC, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, HogenEsch H. J Vet Intern Med. 2006 Jul-Aug;20(4):818-21.) refutes one of the claims in the site you.. eh.. cited. Please note it is written by the same authors as the one used in that site. Meaning they went back and investigated it again. I don’t know from thyroiditis since it isn’t an issue in my breed. I don’t really think much of studies done on lab Beagles tho - they are a good place to start but not good enough to make a conclusion with. And really, 20 dogs compared to decades of research? ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/66 "2009-02-18T01:49:40Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > People with facts at their disposal? > > Don’t forget HDTV, cellphones, CDs, the Ipod, digital cameras, widespread use of the Internet, global warming and a bazillion other lifestyle and commerce changes have occurred at about the same time as increased allergies. > > But yes, we should definitely blame vaccines. Vaccines are BAD! :rolleyes: Me, I blame high fructose corn syrup. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/67 "2009-02-18T01:50:57Z")
> [@Kolga](#): > > I responded to your original post regarding whether or not diarrhea could truly be life-threatening to children with my understanding that yes, diarrhea could indeed truly be life-threatening to children in a relatively small period of time due to the differences in body size between children and adults (more rapid dehydration, more rapid electrolyte imbalance, etc.). > > I was unaware that this was going to be another one of your “I’ve never seen it happen, therefore it doesn’t exist and those concerns are invalid” posts. Gosh, I’m so sorry that I don’t agree with everything you say and have the gall to actually post that way. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/68 "2009-02-18T01:55:45Z")
> [@ENugent](#): > > The CDC vaccination schedule is [here](http://cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/default.htm). > > According to this, at age 6, a child should have had > > At birth: HepB > 1 month: HepB > 2 months: DTap, Hib, IPV (polio), PCV7 (pneumococcus), Rotavirus > 4 months: DTap, Hib, IPV, PCV7, Rotavirus > 6 months: DTap, Hib, PCV7, Rotavirus > 6-18 months: HepB, IPV > 12-15 months: Hib, PCV7, MMR (measles, mumps, rubella), Varicella (chicken pox) > 12-23 months: HepA > 15-18 months: DTap > 18+ months: HepA > 4-6 years: DTap, IPV, MMR, Varicella > > In addition, two flu shots in the first flu season after age 6 months, and one each subsequent year. > > Adding it up, I get a maximum of 36 shots by age 6. But I know that my son’s Rotavirus vaccine was oral, not an injection, and there may also be combo shots not accounted for in the list above. Yes, this looks like what I saw - 36 vaccinations (shots or oral) and multiples of some of them. And do they get them all at once when they are listed together? For example, one office visit at 12-15 months to get vaccinated for Hib, PCV7, MMR (measles, mumps, rubella), Varicella? What is Hib? Or DTap? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/69 "2009-02-18T01:56:39Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Gosh, I’m so sorry that I don’t agree with everything you say and have the gall to actually post that way. Is that what you actually think you’re doing? Because I, for one, see you as simply ignoring or waving away practically everything that doesn’t support your position. Which is pretty much every fact posted in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/70 "2009-02-18T01:59:00Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So what’s your point? It just _sounds_ like too much immunization to you? You’d encourage parents to pick and choose what shots their kids get, and to skip and/or delay protection because of some negative non-fact based impression you have, and the people who’ve devoted their lives to caring for children and fighting infectious disease should be ignored? My point is that we used to vaccinate dogs like this, until it became known that not only did they not need this many vaccinations, it was actually bad for their health. I find it amazing that parents do this to their children and wonder why. Apparently you are incapable of answering any questions on this subject without getting defensive, so I’ll just not respond to you any more, OK? ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/71 "2009-02-18T02:02:11Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Theories are tolerated just fine. What you have is a hypothesis that ignores the facts that have been pointed out to you repeatedly. OK, fine, no more interest in getting my ignorance fixed on this subject. You parents just go ahead and keep doing what you are doing and God forbid, _never_ question the conventional wisdom! ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/72 "2009-02-18T02:02:40Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Is that what you actually think you’re doing? Because I, for one, see you as simply ignoring or waving away practically everything that doesn’t support your position. Which is pretty much every fact posted in this thread. This is, if I recall correctly, her modus operandi. Which is why I posted my original snark. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/73 "2009-02-18T02:15:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > Because I’m leery of the effects that vaccinations have on the immune system. So those diseases that I’m not likely to get very sick from (might less die) I don’t get vaccinated for, such as the multiple sorts of flus. Never get the shot, never get the flu even tho I supposed to be one of the high risk sorts. Why would you be leery of a process that strengthens the immune system? As for the flu . . . well the flu epidemic of [1918](http://www.stanford.edu/group/virus/uda/) sure killed a lot of people. > [@](#): > > For which one? That food allergies (for example) are on the rise, or that more and more mothers are spending way too much energy on sterilizing their childrens’ environments? Both actually. Or the implication that this is a result of vaccination. > [@](#): > > For humans I have no idea because I haven’t really looked into exactly what is being given to kids these days or how likely it is that any child living with me would actually contract any of those diseases. After reading some of the articles on the chickenpox vaccine, I’d say I might have a problem with that one. If you don’t have an idea then you might want to stop writing about the subject. Just suggesting . . . > [@](#): > > Yes, I’m well aware that theories that are different than mainstream are not really tolerated in here. :rolleyes: Would you like some wood and nails for that cross? > [@](#): > > Not doing them all, not doing them as frequently, not doing so many at once, using titers (if those exist in humans). Definitely not just following a pediatricians advice blindly. Oh good grief. You don’t even know that titers exist in humans . . . and yet you feel confident enough to make pronouncements about vaccinations? There’s no reason to forego a vaccine unless a medical professional (you know someone who actually about stuff like titers) tells you to. > [@](#): > > And I’m sorry, I just ignored the rest of what you posted as it appeared to just be bordering on hysterical mom-ism. So sorry to interrupt your ignorance with facts. Two hundred years you know what they called “a real mom?” Someone who had lost a baby or child. That little one most likely died from the kind of diseases we don’t even think about today because of vaccines. Shut up and go away. You’re trying to spreading ignorance and it sucks. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/74 "2009-02-18T02:29:48Z")
Dogs and people are pretty different. Most dogs do not go to school every day where they are exposed to several hundred other dogs and whatever infectious diseases those dogs may have. Kids do - and schools can become vectors. My understanding is that dog people who take their dogs to shows tend to undergo a more through vaccination schedule than dog people who have a family pet that might meet a few neighborhood dogs out on a leashed walk. Since we don’t board our dog, we don’t tend to vaccinate him against much - he sees two other dogs pretty much ever and those two only occasionally. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/75 "2009-02-18T02:40:55Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, fine, no more interest in getting my ignorance fixed on this subject. You never had any to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/76 "2009-02-18T02:47:17Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, fine, no more interest in getting my ignorance fixed on this subject. Wow ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/77 "2009-02-18T02:53:20Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, fine, no more interest in getting my ignorance fixed on this subject. You parents just go ahead and keep doing what you are doing and God forbid, _never_ question the conventional wisdom! Look, you’ve been given tons of information from scientific and medical sources regarding your so-called “ignorance” on the subject. You’ve chosen to ignore or wave away what you didn’t like, or what didn’t fit your personal experiences (not the first time you’ve done that in discussions). So, really, one must assume that you have no intention of “fixing” your so-called “ignorance” on the subject, but that you have an agenda to which you are determined to adhere. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/78 "2009-02-18T02:58:12Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > OK, fine, no more interest in getting my ignorance fixed on this subject. > [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You never had any to begin with. C’mon, **curlcoat** has _vast amounts_ of ignorance pertaining to this subject. She acknowledges being confused, not knowing what basic vaccinations are, and to having fears that are not grounded in evidence. She proudly adheres to her ignorance, viewing it as a mark of individuality and eschewing the “mainstream”. **curlcoat** is a fairly common sort of antivaxer, someone who takes pains to explain how she isn’t _really_ antivaccine, but has all these worries and concerns that no degree of rational explanation and factual evidence are allowed to penetrate. She cannot be reached; however her misinformation and insinuations have been nicely addressed by numerous informed posters in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/79 "2009-02-18T03:05:05Z")
Er, **Jack** , I meant she never had any intent to cure her ignorance. Obviously she did and does have lots of ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![Kolga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e56c9b/32.png) [@Kolga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kolga)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971/80 "2009-02-18T03:07:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > Er, **Jack** , I meant she never had any intent to cure her ignorance. Obviously she did and does have lots of ignorance. I may be mistaken, but I have a feeling you might have been wooshed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-interested-observer-b-and-other-vaccine-disinformers-argh/485971.md?page=5)