# \[b\]prisoner\[/b\], honey - you're an idiot. A big dumb one. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444 "2005-01-12T21:59:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/261 "2005-01-14T17:04:59Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Yes, I am saying that. Note the words “No guarantee of safety” and “sometimes.” You said “noone can ever plan for all contigencies–something that tdn has not acknowledged.” “No guarantee of safety” is acknowledgement. OK. I apologize for misconstrueing your words–my “noone can plan for all contingencies” speaks to those times when the safety tips DON’T work. \*\*Try \*\* said it best: > [@](#): > > If someone does not take any or all preventative risks and is victimized, he or she does not bear responsibilty for being raped. > Actually, I think you and I agree on this. . Yes, as I’ve said, using the safety tips and some common sense does help–but see **Try’s** quote–women who can’t are didn’t use these are NOT culpable for their rape. And how Draconian do the “tips” get? I’m supposed to carry a gun? No–I should not have to carry a gun to walk in peace in this world. I have to take tae kwon do and be good at it to be safe? Do you see how the tips could get more and more of a burden on the potential victim–while nothing is done to stop the actions of the perp? Does no-one see this but me? > [@](#): > > No one has disagreed that getting at the root of the problem is the best course of action. But how long do you think that will take? Do you honestly believe that we’re ever going to be a rape-free society? Ever? OK, let’s say we’ll be a rape-free utopia by the year 2008. What are you going to do until then? Resign yourself to being a victim? Taking unnecessary risks because men should just know better? Please don’t --the sarcasm doesn’t help. I am trying to discuss this with you–I am not here to make you feel bad or guilty or mad. Humans being humans, we will always suffer from the aberrant behavior of a few. It would be nice re: rape, if it were a few. My comment on not caring about the motives of the rapist refers to the man who has actually commited the crime. Again, he will NOT take responsiblity for his actions; he will put it on the victim and ya know, **Lee’s** story proves this point–so will we. We join the dog and pony show everytime we question why the girl was out at night. why she wore that skirt/jean/shirt/bathrobe, why she didn’t fight back/run away/scream. It’s a nasty face of society, but it exists. I am sorry if it pains you to acknowledge the above(I don’t mean that snidely). But we DO indeed judge rape victims differently than murder victims or even muggings. THAT, and the fact that my personal (and all women’s ) freedoms are curtailed in ways that men cannot fully appreciate is what angers me. Maybe men _can_ appreciate the sudden sickening falling of your stomach when you, in your haste to get to X appt, you find yourself alone in the parking garage with Mr. Stranger 3 cars away. He could be Mr. Rogers–it doesn’t matter–you don’t know. You can’t trust in that. Maybe men can understand that–I think that most men do. To be continually conscious of your safety is a heavy price for women. Does everyone have to have that burden, given that we live with the risk? Yes, they do–but it is heavier on women because of rape. I have no ire for the men who are here or participating–I know many men who are as disgusted and enraged about this topic as women are. This is not a “woman’s” issue–it is a human issue. By all means, delve into to the motives for rape in the education for men and women. But IMO, a sea change has to occur as well. We have to stop looking askance at the victims and questioning their actions–we must concectrate on the actions of the perps. **tdn** again, I have no gripe with you. I think we are posting at cross purposes here. We both decry rape and want better information and change to occur. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/262 "2005-01-14T17:24:01Z")
I would like to know why **prisoner** has not come to post here in this thread. I can only assume he agrees with everyone that he was wrong/idiot/whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/263 "2005-01-14T17:31:15Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > It would be nice if the people saying “rape has nothing to do with sex” could give us a concise definition of sex. That might clear up a lot of confusion. I tried to do that twice on page 4. I know that this has been a long and somewhat circular debate. Let me ask a few questions: Does the word sex connote consent? I would assume you would say no. I feel it does. Does it take two people to have sex? I again assume you would say no. I feel it does. If you referring to sex as coitus, then the above two connotations of the word “sex” does not apply. However, we live in a world where words have definitions and connotations. Why not use other words like sexual assault, or another phrase? Seriously, we could just as easily use the word coitus, couldn’t we? Why are you hung up on the idea that people do not like to connote a rape with sex? Now if we are talking about a legal definition, many of the statutes contain phrases like “unwanted sexual intercourse” or, more typically, “sexual intrusion” or “sexual penetration” and then the statute will define that exact phrase as it applies to the crime of sexual assault. However, I don’t expect society to use precision definitions that are required in law. I expect people to talk about the connotations of words, the power words can have to shape thoughts, et cetera. Let me ask you one thing: When I was a prosecutor in trial, would you have liked me to stand up in front of a jury and said, _ahem_ “Ladies and Gentlemen, the Defendant had sex with the victim without her consent.” How about, “The Defendant engaged in coitus with this woman without her consent.” Not very powerful, is it? Why? I can tell you that every defense attorney would LOVE for me to agree to call that act as sex. Why? I never refer to rape as sex because it makes people confront the reality to the victim that this was an assault-- perhaps the most personal and savage assault a person can go through. Many people I have known who have been sexually assaulted have told me that they wished they died. That is where I come from and that is why I won’t call say that rape is sex. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/264 "2005-01-14T17:35:39Z")
> [@Try As I Might...](#): > > I never refer to rape as sex because it makes people confront the reality to the victim that this was an assault-- perhaps the most personal and savage assault a person can go through. Many people I have known who have been sexually assaulted have told me that they wished they died. That is where I come from and that is why I won’t call say that rape is sex. Does that make sense? **Try As I Might…** , if you agree to stick around these parts, I will happily pay for your membership fee myself. Bravo. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/265 "2005-01-14T17:45:17Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > And that would be a good thing, right? I’m getting the message that that’s strictly impossible, though I don’t understand why. But in theory, it would be a good thing? You’d have saved yourself a lot of trouble later in this thread if you’d read the _rest_ of my post. I know it was a little long, but you could try a little harder considering how much you’ve been complaining for the past page or so that no one’s listening to you. I am sure that no one here believes that rape is the inevitable fate of all women, and that it’s always completely impossible for a potential victim to do anything to escape a rapist. But once again, the important distinction that needs to be made is between “Here are the things you need to do to prevent someone from wanting to rape you” and “If someone tries to rape you, here are some things that might help you to escape. But remember that every situation is different, so use your best judgement.” Rapists rarely just change their minds. Every woman I know who has escaped unharmed from a rape attempt did so because she took action to defend herself. However, many women have been raped despite their best efforts to get away. There is nothing wrong with reasonable self-defense tips or basic precautions. There is, however, something very wrong with presenting these things as the target’s _responsibility_ or as ways to _prevent_ rape. Why? Because that suggests that if someone is actually raped, it was their own fault for failing in their responsibility to prevent it! They obviously did something wrong, or the rapist wouldn’t have succeeded! You can say that’s not what you mean all day long, but no matter what _you_ mean that’s what the _words_ mean. If victims are “responsible” for preventing rape, then they’re equally “responsible” when the rape isn’t prevented. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/266 "2005-01-14T17:46:41Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Yes, as I’ve said, using the safety tips and some common sense does help–but see **Try’s** quote–women who can’t are didn’t use these are NOT culpable for their rape. Yep, we agree. This is all I’ve been trying to say. > [@](#): > > And how Draconian do the “tips” get? I’m supposed to carry a gun? No–I should not have to carry a gun to walk in peace in this world. I have to take tae kwon do and be good at it to be safe? Do you see how the tips could get more and more of a burden on the potential victim–while nothing is done to stop the actions of the perp? Does no-one see this but me? Oh, I think everyone sees it. Once again, I think we all agree that stopping rapists is the number on concern. But at some point you have to acknowledge that we live in a dangerous world, and if you don’t want it to hurt you, you have to take steps to protect yourself. Yes, it’s a burden we all have to bear, and none of us likes it. And yes, it sucks that it’s so much worse for women. But that’s the world we live in, unfortunately. > [@](#): > > Please don’t --the sarcasm doesn’t help. I am trying to discuss this with you–I am not here to make you feel bad or guilty or mad. Sorry. I know you’re being more polite to me than I deserve. It’s just all the frustration, you know? > [@](#): > > My comment on not caring about the motives of the rapist refers to the man who has actually commited the crime. Again, he will NOT take responsiblity for his actions; he will put it on the victim and ya know, **Lee’s** story proves this point–so will we. We join the dog and pony show everytime we question why the girl was out at night. why she wore that skirt/jean/shirt/bathrobe, why she didn’t fight back/run away/scream. It’s a nasty face of society, but it exists. This is going to get a little off track, but… For one thing, some actually might acknowledge wrongdoing. Some might not see it as wrongdoing at all. The motives and culpabilities most likely widely vary from person to person. It’s not like all rapists are stamped out of the same mold, after all. Secondly, yes, some rapists and their defense attornies are going to try to blame the victims. That is their job, and that is their right. I would expect no less of a defense attorny. And the defendant’s rights are constitutionally protected. That’s what makes this country great. Unfortunately it has the nasty side effect of putting the victim through hell. I don’t think anyone is happy about that, and it probably results in fewer convictions than are needed. But if you can come up with a system that’s more fair – well, you’ve done a lot better than many people who have already tried. > [@](#): > > I am sorry if it pains you to acknowledge the above(I don’t mean that snidely). But we DO indeed judge rape victims differently than murder victims or even muggings. Yep. It’s one fucked up attitude. It’s one I hope we could change. Maybe someday we will. > [@](#): > > THAT, and the fact that my personal (and all women’s ) freedoms are curtailed in ways that men cannot fully appreciate is what angers me. Maybe men _can_ appreciate the sudden sickening falling of your stomach when you, in your haste to get to X appt, you find yourself alone in the parking garage with Mr. Stranger 3 cars away. Yes, I know the feeling well, and can’t imagine if it’s 10 times worse. But I also think that if you can rely on yourself for defense, that might ease the burden a little. Knowing you have a little insurance might bring peace of mind. Or maybe it won’t. That’s up to you. > [@](#): > > I have no ire for the men who are here or participating–I know many men who are as disgusted and enraged about this topic as women are. This is not a “woman’s” issue–it is a human issue. Thank you for saying that. > [@](#): > > By all means, delve into to the motives for rape in the education for men and women. But IMO, a sea change has to occur as well. We have to stop looking askance at the victims and questioning their actions–we must concectrate on the actions of the perps. Absolutely, except, as I said above, when it comes to court cases, the victim is going to be made out as the villan. This has always been the case, and likely always will. If anyone can figure a way around it, I’m sure the world is all ears. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/267 "2005-01-14T17:56:02Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > **Try As I Might…** , if you agree to stick around these parts, I will happily pay for your membership fee myself. Bravo. Aw shucks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/268 "2005-01-14T18:01:25Z")
> [@Try As I Might...](#): > > tdn: > Look over my posts and tell me that I have not agreed with you that there are preventative actions a woman can take. I’m not going to tell you that because I never claimed it of you. For the record, I thought your initial post was informative and insightful, and I thank you for posting it. You gave this thread a much needed touch of class. > [@](#): > > Now, if, based on my agreement with you on this issue, if you or someone else is going to ask me to agree that the onus, responsibility, whatever you call it can be placed on the victim, I am not going agree. If someone does not take any or all preventative risks and is victimized, he or she does not bear responsibilty for being raped. > Actually, I think you and I agree on this. Yes, we do. And it’s what I’ve been saying all along. Oh, and everyone else – if I’m a little slow in responding to you, I’m sorry. There are so many posts to answer, and I need to cut back on my board time drasitcally. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/269 "2005-01-14T18:09:21Z")
tdn, fair enough. I have truly appreciated your thoughts and comments as well as many of the other posters on this site. It is refreshing to find a group of people willing to listen to each other, fight through the tough emotions these issues can present, and see if there is common ground. Of course, if I stick around long enough, I’m sure my name will up there with prisoner’s getting flamed in the pit–if maybe just on another issue. PS. Let me know the next time you’re up for a good scotch! 🙂 OK, hijack over. back to banging heads on the wall. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/270 "2005-01-14T18:18:01Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > You’d have saved yourself a lot of trouble later in this thread if you’d read the _rest_ of my post. I know it was a little long, but you could try a little harder considering how much you’ve been complaining for the past page or so that no one’s listening to you. I’m sure I read it, but I don’t remember it. (Isn’t that flattering? 😉 ) If you could tell me what post number it is, I promise to reread it. > [@](#): > > You can say that’s not what you mean all day long, but no matter what _you_ mean that’s what the _words_ mean. If victims are “responsible” for preventing rape, then they’re equally “responsible” when the rape isn’t prevented. That’s not quite what the words mean. Much like “sex”, “responsibility” is a word fraught with vague meaning, depending on context and the speaker’s intent. It dawned on me last night that we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble and hurt feelings if we’d just defined that one little word. It can mean: a) What you will get blamed for if you do not take certain actions. “Clean up that mess. You made it, it’s your responsibilty to clean it up.” b) Proactive tasks that you, and only you, can take to improve your situation. “If you want to live a long time, it’s your responsibility to get more exercise. No one else can do it for you.” I meant it as b), but everyone was taking it as a). I hope that if you reread some of my previous posts with that in mind, you’ll see that I am not, in fact, an unreasonable prick. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/271 "2005-01-14T18:21:20Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I think that, while some of us are being berated for ‘creating justifications’ for rapists, some of you are missing our point. I think that rape covers a HUGE spectrum of actions- from back alley stranger rape, to molestation, to drug and rape, to sex with a passed out person rape, etc. I don’t see that much of a difference: “Back-alley stranger rape”: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by staking out a location where he can capture a victim), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself. Molestation: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by ingratiating himself to a person who trusts him), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself. “Drug and rape” (which I assume means the use of “roofies” and other date rape drugs): that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by slipping an intoxicant to his unsuspecting victim), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself. “Sex with a passed out person rape”: that’s a sexual predator who plans his attack (by situating himself in a place where he has an expectation that there will be passed out people to have sex with), taking his victim when the opportunity presents itself. In each case the rapist made a conscious plan to enable his access to potential victims and consciously decided to have nonconsensual sex with that victim. They are the same and they need to be treated the same: as the deliberate, malicious acts of sexual predators. I think a lot of men are encouraged to be sexual predators by their peers and by their society. We need to put a stop to this. Boys do not have to be be boys. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/272 "2005-01-14T18:28:04Z")
> [@Try As I Might...](#): > > I tried to do that twice on page 4. > > I know that this has been a long and somewhat circular debate. > Let me ask a few questions: > Does the word sex connote consent? > I would assume you would say no. I feel it does. > Does it take two people to have sex? > I again assume you would say no. I feel it does. > > If you referring to sex as coitus, then the above two connotations of the word “sex” does not apply. However, we live in a world where words have definitions and connotations. Good post. This should make it obvious that there can, in fact, be two working definitions of “sex” (and more, such as gender). And thus, “rape is not sex” and “rape is sex” can both be true statements, living happily together in a van down by the river. Since we’re playing word games, shall I go into my spiel about how “no” sometimes does mean “yes”? Or should I save you the trouble and just flay myself alive right now? ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/273 "2005-01-14T18:32:52Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Good post. This should make it obvious that there can, in fact, be two working definitions of “sex” (and more, such as gender). And thus, “rape is not sex” and “rape is sex” can both be true statements, living happily together in a van down by the river. > > Since we’re playing word games, shall I go into my spiel about how “no” sometimes does mean “yes”? Or should I save you the trouble and just flay myself alive right now? OK that is funny. I dare you. I double dog dare you. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/274 "2005-01-14T18:39:11Z")
**Left Hand of Dorkness** , [this cite](http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/mythsandfactssa.pdf) is from the University of Minnesota, and although there’s just a quick blurb, it also addresses several of the other points that have been brought up here. Including **I love me, Vol. I’s** veiled accusation that some women “cry rape” after having consensual sex. I’ll keep looking. **tdn** , I’m glad you’re back. 🙂 Yes, I really mean that. I’ve gotten a lot out of this discussion with you. You never learn anything from people you’re in complete agreement with, so having an opposing view point has helped me clarify my own. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/275 "2005-01-14T18:51:39Z")
> [@Try As I Might...](#): > > OK that is funny. > I dare you. I double dog dare you. Alright. Just promise to speak well of me at my funeral. Sometimes when a woman says no, she means yes. She might mean “Yes, but I don’t want to seem like a slut, so you’ll have to just take me.” She might mean “Yes, but go slow.” She might mean “Yes, but but you’re touching that wrong.” She might mean “Yes, but let me run to the bathroom first.” Hell, she might even mean “Yes, the Bangledeshi word for which is ‘noe’.” Except for the last one, I’ve experienced all of those. To a woman, these various meanings might be perfectly clear. To us big dumb men, they all sound sort of alike. It’s not easy to distinguish between them, but context and inflection sometimes help. The smart man will respond politely as if it meant “no”, then be quick to read her reaction. Young men, as a whole, are not smart men. Let the firing squad commence. I’d like a blindfold and cigarette, please. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/276 "2005-01-14T18:54:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I’m sure I read it, but I don’t remember it. (Isn’t that flattering? 😉 ) If you could tell me what post number it is, I promise to reread it. I restated the most important part already, but the original is back at #181. > [@](#): > > - > > It can mean: > a) What you will get blamed for if you do not take certain actions. “Clean up that mess. You made it, it’s your responsibilty to clean it up.” > b) Proactive tasks that you, and only you, can take to improve your situation. “If you want to live a long time, it’s your responsibility to get more exercise. No one else can do it for you.” > > I meant it as b), but everyone was taking it as a). I hope that if you reread some of my previous posts with that in mind, you’ll see that I am not, in fact, an unreasonable prick. \*I don’t think b) is really all that much of an improvement. It sounds like exercise is a guarantee of a long life and that anyone who doesn’t live a long time must have screwed up when it came to personal responsibility. “Get plenty of exercise” is good advice. “Don’t leave your drink unattended” is also good advice. But “If you don’t want to be raped, it’s your responsibility to be sure you don’t leave your drink unattended” would be a horrible way to present this advice. It suggests that avoiding rape is simply a matter of “following the rules”, and that anyone who _is_ raped must have done something wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea666f/32.png) [@Try\_As\_I\_Might](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try_As_I_Might)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/277 "2005-01-14T18:57:46Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Let the firing squad commence. I’d like a blindfold and cigarette, please. _runs and hides, but peeks around the corner to watch with morbid curiosity_ ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/278 "2005-01-14T19:00:21Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Alright. Just promise to speak well of me at my funeral. > > Sometimes when a woman says no, she means yes. > > She might mean “Yes, but I don’t want to seem like a slut, so you’ll have to just take me.” > She might mean “Yes, but go slow.” > She might mean “Yes, but but you’re touching that wrong.” > She might mean “Yes, but let me run to the bathroom first.” > Hell, she might even mean “Yes, the Bangledeshi word for which is ‘noe’.” > > Except for the last one, I’ve experienced all of those. To a woman, these various meanings might be perfectly clear. To us big dumb men, they all sound sort of alike. It’s not easy to distinguish between them, but context and inflection sometimes help. The smart man will respond politely as if it meant “no”, then be quick to read her reaction. > > Young men, as a whole, are not smart men. > > Let the firing squad commence. I’d like a blindfold and cigarette, please. In the interest of presenting both sides of the argument, [this article](http://www.pbs.org/kued/nosafeplace/articles/rapefeat.html) by PBS pretty much supports what i _think_ **tdn** is trying to say. I won’t say I agree with it completely, but it’s very informative and dispassionate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/279 "2005-01-14T19:04:09Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > **Left Hand of Dorkness** , [this cite](http://www1.umn.edu/aurora/mythsandfactssa.pdf) is from the University of Minnesota, and although there’s just a quick blurb, it also addresses several of the other points that have been brought up here. Including **I love me, Vol. I’s** veiled accusation that some women “cry rape” after having consensual sex. I’ll keep looking. Thanks for the cite, **Maureen**! Unfortunately, it just provides an assertion without showing the evidence on which they base the assertion, leaving me just as confused: are they basing this on interviews with convicted rapists, without adjusting the statistics to account for the higher rate of conviction for stranger-rapists as compared to acquaintance-rapists? I don’t know. I’m looking at [another cite](http://www.ccasa.org/documents/Root_Causes_Long_Version.pdf) (PDF) that contains the following: > [@](#): > > In studies of convicted rapists, Nicholas Groth identified three basic patterns of rape – “anger rape,” “power rape,” and “sadistic rape.” In the first type, the offender aims to debase the victim and is usually violent and profane. For him, rape is the ultimate expression of his anger. The power rapists seeks a sense of conquest and control, and often kidnaps his victim and **entertains the fantasy** that she is enjoying his abuse. **The sadistic rapist eroticizes sex, anger, and power** , ritualistically tormenting and abusing this victim whom he often sees as a symbol of something he wants to punish or destroy. (emphasis added). Do these sound like healthy understandings of sexuality? Of course not: they’re supremely awful sexualities. But sexualities they are nonetheless. **Try as I Might** , I think this may come down to a difference between prescriptive grammarians and descriptive grammarians. You seem to want to establish a meaning for the word “sex” that everyone is obligated to respect. I’m coming at it from a different angle: I’m trying to understand how different people construe “sex.” If you’re addressing a courtroom of people who believe that “sex” implies consent, then of course you shouldn’t refer to a rape as sex. **But if you’re talking to a guy who eroticizes dominance and violence** , then it behooves you to speak the language he understands if you want to persuade him that sex-with-violence equals rape and is not in any way copacetic. From the same site: > [@](#): > > The stage of relationship between a man and a woman may affect the probability of violence, although the research is still unclear on this point. Some research suggests that men who rape on first or second dates may have similarities to stranger rapists, while men who rape early in what otherwise appears to be a developing relationship may simply misperceive their partners’ intent. Once a couple has been sexually intimate, a man may be more likely to believe that he has a right to such intimacy any time he desires it. He may also make the false assumption that a forced sexual encounter with a sexually experienced woman is harmless. It seems to me that for rapists, sex, violence, and control are all pretty closely intertwined. Rather than denying that sex is part of the equation for them, it’d be more effective, I think, to work with adolescent boys to try to keep these aspects separate, to untangle the skein before they enact horrific fantasies. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/280 "2005-01-14T19:12:00Z")
You make an excellent point, and the second article I linked (eventually) comes to that same conclusion as well. > [@](#): > > From his work with sex offenders, C. Y. Roby has also seen "a lot of desire to dominate or control others. “To a certain degree, I think it’s something that we’ve learned socially,” he says. “Males often grow up and realize that the way to get what they want is through aggressive means.” > > Michael Kimmel is a sociologist at the State University of New York who has received international recognition for his work on men and masculinity. He says violent men often view their actions as revenge or retaliation. “They say, women have power over me because they’re beautiful and sexual and I want them and they elicit that and I feel powerless,” he says. “Just listen for a minute to the way in which we describe women’s beauty and sexuality. We describe it as a violence against us. She is a knock-out, a bomb-shell, dressed to kill, a femme fatale, stunning, ravishing. I mean all of these are words of violence against us. It’s like, wow, she knocked me out. So the violence then, or the aggression or the sexual violence is often a way to retaliate.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444.md?page=15)