# \[b\]prisoner\[/b\], honey - you're an idiot. A big dumb one. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 12, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444 "2005-01-12T21:59:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/81 "2005-01-13T04:33:23Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Ugh. You’re probably correct. I found out that I have cancer on Tuesday… Sorry to hear that. Best wishes for a complete recovery. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/82 "2005-01-13T04:46:34Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Ugh. You’re probably correct. I found out that I have cancer on Tuesday, and I’m probably a little over sensitve. Sorry 'bout that. It’s your own fault, you know. What have I told you about eating red meat? ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/83 "2005-01-13T04:48:38Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > It’s your own fault, you know. What have I told you about eating red meat? Heh. Surprisingly (or not), some people (my mother for one), have expressed things pretty close to that. I’m just a little touchier than usual because of it, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/84 "2005-01-13T04:49:39Z")
OMG, **Alice** , are you serious? Fuck, I am SO sorry. I honestly thought you were being fecetious. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/85 "2005-01-13T04:58:31Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > OMG, **Alice** , are you serious? Sadly, yes. I had thought about posting a MPSIMS thread about it but wound up dumping it here instead. Crap. Now I’ve hijacked my own thread. Um, can we get back to how **prisoner6655321** is dumb? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/86 "2005-01-13T05:00:02Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Ugh. You’re probably correct. I found out that I have cancer on Tuesday, and I’m probably a little over sensitve. Sorry 'bout that. Jesus, **alice** , I’m really sorry. Okay, back on topic-the majority of rapes that take place are ones where the victim KNOWS her attacker. Yes, there are things people do that are stupid that put themselves in danger-like I wouldn’t go to various areas all alone after dark. That’s just common sense. However, even if someone did so, all she’s guilty of is BAD JUDGEMENT, or being naive. Whereas a lot of ultra-conservative religious fundies will actively say the woman brought it on herself. I’m gonna go and page **Lissla Lissar** , she and I ran up against a group like that once. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/87 "2005-01-13T05:08:23Z")
> [@](#): > > **Bippy** : It is a perseption that people who do everthing wrong are at greater danger than people who do everything right. Everything wrong? You mean breaking a law? How can I live in freedom, come and go when I please and where I please, as long as it is legal, and still be considered “wrong”? _I am not wrong_ in wanting to be able to go for a walk after midnight when the city is quiet and the fumes from traffic have lifted. I am not _wrong_ in believing that my freedom _never_ prevokes a crime. It’s right there in the opening of the Declaration of Independence in the part about _Liberty_. There is no footnote about daylight and good neighborhoods. I have a _right_ not to be raped and not to be blamed _at all_ for crimes committed against me. And just for the record, when an attempt _was_ made, I was inside a building with people in adjacent rooms. It wasn’t late at night. It was early in the evening. The lights were on; he turned them off. I was wearing a dress that came down to my ankles. And there wasn’t lust in his eyes; it was pure maliciousness. Geez, the next thing you know, y’all will be blaming teachers who get beaten up when they teach in tough schools. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/88 "2005-01-13T05:17:21Z")
I just thought I’d throw a stat or something in here… > [@](#): > > Almost 80% of sexual assault is committed by an acquaintance of the victim. ([http://www.icasa.org/statsFacts.asp?parentid=532](http://www.icasa.org/statsFacts.asp?parentid=532)) meaning the woman was targeted by her rapist, not because she was wearing a hoochie skirt (she could have been), but because the rapist **KNEW HER** , had probably talked to her and targeted her. A small number of rapes are committed by random strangers who see a woman alone in a bad part of town in a miniskirt and decide to go for it. Does this mean women should hang out in bad parts of town, on their own, in miniskirts. Uh, no. But it also shows that rather than dressing sexy, actually meeting new people is probably a much bigger risk to being raped. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/89 "2005-01-13T05:29:33Z")
I’m just wondering who all of you are arguing so vehemently with. No-one is saying that women who get raped ought to be blamed for it; no-one is saying that women don’t have the right to not be victims. The factors brought up here have all been mentioned before - as a matter of fact, by me, in my reply earlier in this thread to **Bippy** : > [@](#): > > This equation only works if you think that “dressing sexy” is the major cause of rapes. > > I think that rapes are caused by the rapists’ own twisted motivations, desire for dominance, aggression, what-have-you. For whatever reason, they like to rape, and go around scouting for victims. > > “Dressing sexy” may be something that gets a person selected as a victim. So could being in a lonely place at night, like an apartment parking garage; for kids, being too sheltered, so that you aren’t wary enough of strangers; or conversely, believing that only strangers can harm you (most rapes are by people who know or are related to the victim). > > It is really difficult to know which factors are most important, so it is best to try to make children aware of the dangers - in order to behave wisely, for their own protection. > > But placing all of the blame on the child’s choice of clothing is IMHO quite wrong. It could be the case that she was attacked because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and would have been a target no matter what she was wearing. > > A sad example - in my own city, a little girl was attacked on her way from school, abducted in broad daylight, raped and murdered - this was not “her fault” in any conceivable way, no matter what she was wearing; she was just unlucky to have run into a monster in human form. Once again, there is a distinction between _moral blame_ and _causation_. I actually think that everyone here is in this thread is on the same page - we just have different ways of expressing it. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/90 "2005-01-13T05:33:52Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Once again, there is a distinction between _moral blame_ and _causation_. Well, just so we can be clear then. A woman in a miniskirt not only isn’t morally responsible for her rape, nor did she cause it. The man who attacked her did. Right? That’s what we’re all saying, right? We all agree? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/91 "2005-01-13T05:52:56Z")
Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/92 "2005-01-13T06:02:15Z")
> [@Random](#): > > Your point? Is this somehow meant to support a claim that nothing a woman can do will ever decrease the chances of becoming a rape victim? If so, I don’t follow your logic. That’s because that **wasn’t** my claim. What I was getting at was, robbery has material goods as its object. Rape has a human body as its object. It’s possible to rob someone without making any physical contact with them. It’s possible to steal something when there’s no one around at all. Rape has a person’s body as an object. You can’t rape someone without touching them, and that person can fight back or get away. It takes time, during which someone else might observe and intervene. There are men who choose **not** to rape a particular person for those reasons. Therefore, I find your robbery analogy flawed. (I was once in a situation where I could have been raped, but I yelled bloody murder and attracted a hell of a lot of attention. Believe me, it would have happened, but I think the guy was counting on my being too intimidated to protest. I wasn’t, so he had to stop.) **alice** , sorry to hear your bad news. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/93 "2005-01-13T06:11:51Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Well, just so we can be clear then. A woman in a miniskirt not only isn’t morally responsible for her rape, nor did she cause it. The man who attacked her did. > > Right? That’s what we’re all saying, right? We all agree? Of course she isn’t morally responsible and of course she didn’t “cause” it. The man who did the raping is responsible and he caused it. It is also true that the way a woman is dressed _may in some cases_ have been one of the factors that went into the rapist’s choice of victim. It is thus a risk factor. I explained my position on this in the quote I reproduced above. Some factors which go into a rapist’s choice of victim are not things that the victim may take any measures to prevent. The victim cannot determine her own relatives, for example; or whether, as a result of poverty, she lives in a seedy and dangerous part of town. She can, however, take measures for her own safety in other ways - choice of dress depending on the risk, choice of activity in accordance with the risk. I think this is the nub of the argument. We are all confusing _proximate cause_ and _causation generally_. Here is a definition of “proximate cause”: > [@](#): > > WHAT IS “PROXIMATE CAUSE?” > > Proximate cause is the initial act which sets off a natural and continuous sequence of events that produces injury. In the absence of the initial act which produces injury, no injury would have resulted. Any time you act, you start a series of natural and continuous events to occur (for example, after swinging your arm with a ball in your hand, you release it and the ball then rolls down a hill). > > Responsibility for injury lies with the last negligent act that produces the injury (after the ball rolls down the hill, a stranger picks it up, throws it through a window which breaks the glass, causing the glass to shatter and strike a person who was sitting next to the window, cutting her arm and requiring her to obtain medical treatment). In this example, although you caused the ball to roll down the hill, your act is not the proximate cause of the injury to the lady sitting next to the window, the stranger’s act is the proximate cause of the lady’s injury and the stranger, not you, should be held responsible for the injury that she suffered. Now, this is a definition from the law of negligence which deals with accidents, and we are talking about a _criminal_ act - rape is intentional - but bear with me. In this case, everyone agrees that the _proximate cause_ of rape is the rapist. It is his intention, and that alone, which causes the crime to be committed. However, that is the _end_ of the “chain of causation”, not the beginning. Like the ball rolling down the hill in the example above, certain choices a woman makes may “lead the ball to the stranger’s hand”. Some are obviously not ones which can be predicted in advance by the woman. For example, if a woman decides to stay indoors and a rapist breaks into her house, that cannot be known in advance. How could a woman know that staying indoors would lead to being attacked? On the other hand, some choices clearly increase the risk. Deciding to dress sexy and wander back alleys in a rough part of town, for example. Nevertheless, these choices and events are at the _beginning_ of the “chain of causation”. The _proximate cause_ is **always the rapist in every case**. In the example quoted above, he is the one who “picks up the ball and breaks the window with it”. Making risk-increasing choices simply “puts the ball closer to his hand”. Does that make sense? ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/94 "2005-01-13T06:50:13Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > 13 years old does not qualify as “woman.” In any sense of the word, not even physically. > And, for the eleventy ninth time, rape is not a sexual act. It is a violent act of physical aggression. And date rape? When a man rapes his girlfirend, wife or date because she said yes but then changed her mind to no? Sure, the guy has no right to go ahead with the sex act when the woman says no, but do you really think in these cases that it’s not about sex? ---
**Author:** ![jlzania](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jlzania](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jlzania)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/95 "2005-01-13T15:21:22Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > Or women who insist on leaving the house at all. **DON’T THEY REALIZE THAT MEN ARE POOR, USELESS CREATURES THAT CAN’T BE RELIED UPON NOT TO ATTACK RANDOM WOMEN?!?!?** Obviously, those women are to blame, for not taking the necessary precautions. Thank you Alice. This is exactly the sort of logic that groups like the Taliban employ to oppress women. We are so seductive (unless of course, we’re draped head to toe) that men, are incapable of _not_ raping us. And yes, this attitude is highly insulting to men too. You know, I’ve spent days on beaches where women were skantily clad or even topless and not one man was so overpowered by his ‘natural’ urges that he had to throw one to the sand and rape her. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/96 "2005-01-13T15:24:59Z")
I thought prisoner was a she. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/97 "2005-01-13T15:34:56Z")
> [@I Love Me](#): > > And date rape? When a man rapes his girlfirend, wife or date because she said yes but then changed her mind to no? Sure, the guy has no right to go ahead with the sex act when the woman says no, but do you really think in these cases that it’s not about sex? Yes. I really think it’s not about sex. I think it’s about physically expressing frustration and anger and an inability to deal with those strong emotions in any other way. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/98 "2005-01-13T15:56:53Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > This is probably going to draw a lot of angry responses, but this is what I have observed. > Because rape involves intercourse, otherwise rational, intelligent people are under the impression that the root cause was sex. “She had it coming” is seen as valid because it’s not really understood that lust really had very little to do with the act, if anything at all. Rape is about violence, domination, humiliation, and pain. **No one** “wants” to be raped. It is a horrifying degrading experience. I don’t care how the woman/girl dresses. She was not asking to be dragged into a car/alley/room and beaten and forced to have sex against her will. > Some women experience orgasms during rape. This is not a sign of enjoyment. It is a physical response to friction, and ends up adding more humiliation and shame. > That anyone would still use the excuse “she was asking for it,” especially when applied to a 13 year old child, has no more grip on reality than the monster who raped her. No angry response here, Maureen. What you said is exactly correct. Well stated. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/99 "2005-01-13T16:16:10Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Yes. I really think it’s not about sex. I think it’s about physically expressing frustration and anger and an inability to deal with those strong emotions in any other way. If this is true, why not express this frustration as ‘normal’ violence (assault)? Why the added violation if sexual release is not part of the rapists’ motivation? I agree with your other points, but I do tend to think that acquaintance rape, especially between peers (excluding family, minors, etc.) is a different animal than other forms of rape in terms of motivation. I think that there is a definite sexual component there, and a lot less off the ‘power’ angle than you’d think. And yes, I agree with the OP as well- prisoner was way out of line, especially given the minor status of the victim. But that only serves to underline his/her assholishness- the crime is still heinous no matter the age of the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444/100 "2005-01-13T16:21:49Z")
**Stonebow** , if the male in question did not have rape in mind from the second he met his date, then I would probably be able to agree with you. And while I’m sure it happens that some guys just don’t stop when they’re asked to, that’s not really the definition of “date rape.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/b-prisoner-b-honey-youre-an-idiot-a-big-dumb-one/284444.md?page=6)