# Baby boomers: Was it 'Smokey THE Bear' or 'Smokey Bear'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 9, 2001, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078 "2001-01-09T00:08:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![penael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ea5d25/32.png) [@penael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penael)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/21 "2001-01-09T17:37:21Z")
I remember the B-side to the 45 in question, my brother owned it. “Smokey the Bear is a good Bear” …putting in my two cents… ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/22 "2001-01-09T18:30:28Z")
People, people, people… fine. If you want to keep on calling him Smokey _the_ Bear, go ahead. Just don’t fool yourself (and don’t be surprised when a 500 pound angry grizzly shows up at your door) into thinking that it is his real name. Nickname at best, unofficial vulgate maybe, but _ **not** _ his real name. And when you leave a note for Santa the Clause, don’t be surprised when you find nothing but coal in your stockings. Smokey the Bear - Hurumph! Do you also say Froodrick?! Despite **Peta the Tzunami’s** mistrust of government agencies (how’s that shelter in rural Montana doing? Monthly militia meetings going OK? Been out to Roswell lately, or are you still working on your JFK book? 😛 ) it was a government agency who gave Smokey his name. Again, following the Oregon link I posted above (which can also be found on the page \*\*the Tzunami \*\* posted) you find a bit of Smokey’s history (the emphasis is mine) : > [@](#): > > … USDA Forest Service organized the Cooperative Forest Fire Prevention (CFFP) Program in **1942**. It encouraged citizens nationwide to make a personal effort to prevent forest fires. To help convey the concept to the public, the Forest Service asked the War Advertising Council for assistance. This _newly formed group of advertisers_ volunteered their time, expertise, and portions of their media schedules to help the government mobilize civilian support for the war effort. On August 2, **1944** , the Forest Service and the War Advertising Council \*introduced a bear \*as the campaign symbol … > > [snip] > > Albert Staehle, noted illustrator of animals, worked with this description to paint the forest fire prevention bear. His art appeared in the **1945** campaign, and the advertising symbol was given the name \*\*“Smokey Bear.” \*\* > > [snip] > > A significant chapter in Smokey’s long history **began** early in **1950** , when a burned cub survived a fire in the Lincoln National Forest near Capitan, New Mexico. Because this bear survived a terrible forest fire and won the love and imagination of the American public, many people mistakenly believe the cub was the original **Smokey Bear** , but in reality he did not come along until the advertising symbol was almost six years old. So it was a government agency who created the Smokey Bear concept several years before the now famous bear cub was found, and several years before the song came out. They had naming rights, just as our parents had the right to name us, and it is officially recorded with gov. agencies, just like our name is. Sure, I can use **Rhythmdvl** as _a_ name, but I can’t very well expect to use it on my passport. Nope - have to go the appropriate gov. agency to get my _official_ name. As to **Peta the Tzunami’s** comic book find - from the page he linked to: > [@](#): > > This is the first comic issued by the Forest Service, for free distribution to the public, in 1959 & 1960. All later issues had a title block with red background (see below) and the word (the) was dropped. Fine, so some schlub at the Forrest Service got the name wrong. Note the date on the comic - 1959. The Federal Act which made Smokey’s name _official_ (Public Law 359) predates the comic by at least seven years. The whole concept of Smokey Bear goes back seventeen. Also, the ‘the’ only appeared for two years before the Service noticed their mistake, corrected it, and promptly sacked the people responsible for the erroneous cover (along with the obligatory llamas). > [@](#): > > _ **Danthetheman** said_ > It’s not Super the Man because the first word describes the second - he’s a man who is super. But we’re not discussing a bear who is smokey, are we? Do you see smoke coming out of his ears? Course not. He is (or was, at least) called Smokey the Bear because his name was Smokey… and he’s a bear! Simple as that. So, if there is no ‘the’ one can assume that the first word is an adjective? So since it is just Bugs Bunny, we can all assume that the rabbit has fleas? It is just Cecil Adams, so following your logic ‘Cecil’ just means hyper-intelligent? (well, maybe) How is Homer an adjective describing Simpson? I don’t propose that there is a definite rule of when a ‘the’ should be used - **Chuck the ski** provided us with an ample list of names that use ‘the.’ But there is no **the** in Smokey Bear! > [@](#): > > \ ***Danthetheman** also said \* > > I think we can all agree he was originally called Smokey the Bear, until a smartass marketeer decided the ‘the’ was superfluous. No, we can’t all agree. We can all agree that some people have called him Smokey the Bear for quite some time, but that doesn’t change the _fact_ that he was _originally_ called Smokey Bear. Some sloppy artists and writers let the ‘the’ into print from time to time, but that does not change the _objective fact_ that his _real_ name is simply Smokey Bear. I think it would be more accurate to say that it was not some ‘smartass marketeer’ who took the ‘the’ out, but some lazy, incompetent songwriter who stuck it in. Remember one of the main purposes of this site: stamping out ignorance. I can understand if _Smokey Bear_ doesn’t sound right to you. But to insist that it is really Smokey The Bear without providing any backup other than your own memory is contrary to the guiding principles of this forum, and unless **Manhattan** moves this over to GD, we should stick to facts. That’s all from me right now, I have to go get _another_ cup of coffee and listen to Broken Down Palace.[sup]\*[/sup] [sup]\*[/sup][sub]Yes, I know. I was illustrating a point. 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/23 "2001-01-09T19:14:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > So, if there is no ‘the’ one can assume that the first word is an adjective? So since it is just Bugs Bunny, we can all assume that the rabbit has fleas? It is just Cecil Adams, so following your logic ‘Cecil’ just means hyper-intelligent? (well, maybe) How is Homer an adjective describing Simpson? I don’t propose that there is a definite rule of when a ‘the’ should be used - **Chuck the ski** provided us with an ample list of names that use ‘the.’ But there is no **the** in Smokey Bear! No, that’s not right; we can’t assume that. I never meant to imply that, either. Bugs Bunny is called Bugs Bunny because that’s his name. The word ‘bugs’ is not an adjective, so your visual of a rabbit scratching for fleas (while damn funny!) isn’t accurate here. He’s a rabbit whose name happens to be Bugs. If you want to compare comic-book characters, there’s always Howard the Duck. His name’s Howard, and he’s a duck. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > No, we can’t all agree. We can all agree that some people have called him Smokey the Bear for quite some time, but that doesn’t change the _fact_ that he was _originally_ called Smokey Bear. Some sloppy artists and writers let the ‘the’ into print from time to time, but that does not change the _objective fact_ that his _real_ name is simply Smokey Bear. I think it would be more accurate to say that it was not some ‘smartass marketeer’ who took the ‘the’ out, but some lazy, incompetent songwriter who stuck it in. I’m not sure how accurate that is, but you’re entitled to feel that way, of course. I have somewhere in the old homestead a kid’s book from the 60’s or even prior that calls him THE Bear. Now, whether that’s accurate is surely debatable. I didn’t create ol’ Smokey, so I’m not gonna say he’s definitely THE Bear, even though that’s how I remember him. Man, we’re getting riled over a fictional character, aren’t we? Let’s pick on someone else next, like maybe Madame Bovary. She needs it, the hussy! 😃 > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* That’s all from me right now, I have to go get another cup of coffee and listen to Broken Down Palace.[sup]_[/sup] Yes, I know. I was illustrating a point. 😛 ) > \*\* Just curious - and don’t mean to be a nooge! - the point there **was** that you misspelled the name of the song, right? 🆒 You’re all right, **Rhythmdvl** , you Smokey Bear-lover, you! “Strangers stopping strangers just to shake their hands.” ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/24 "2001-01-09T20:12:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > > So, if there is no ‘the’ one can assume that the first word is an adjective? So since it is just Bugs Bunny, we can all assume that the rabbit has fleas? It is just Cecil Adams, so following your logic ‘Cecil’ just means hyper-intelligent? (well, maybe) How is Homer an adjective describing Simpson? I don’t propose that there is a definite rule of when a ‘the’ should be used - **Chuck the ski** provided us with an ample list of names that use ‘the.’ But there is no **the** in Smokey Bear! > > No, that’s not right; we can’t assume that. I never meant to imply that, either. Bugs Bunny is called Bugs Bunny because that’s his name. The word ‘bugs’ is not an adjective, so your visual of a rabbit scratching for fleas (while damn funny!) isn’t accurate here. He’s a rabbit whose name happens to be Bugs. If you want to compare comic-book characters, there’s always Howard the Duck. His name’s Howard, and he’s a duck. > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* > > No, we can’t all agree. We can all agree that some people have called him Smokey the Bear for quite some time, but that doesn’t change the _fact_ that he was _originally_ called Smokey Bear. Some sloppy artists and writers let the ‘the’ into print from time to time, but that does not change the _objective fact_ that his _real_ name is simply Smokey Bear. I think it would be more accurate to say that it was not some ‘smartass marketeer’ who took the ‘the’ out, but some lazy, incompetent songwriter who stuck it in. > > I’m not sure how accurate that is, but you’re entitled to feel that way, of course. I have somewhere in the old homestead a kid’s book from the 60’s or even prior that calls him THE Bear. Now, whether that’s accurate is surely debatable. I didn’t create ol’ Smokey, so I’m not gonna say he’s definitely THE Bear, even though that’s how I remember him. > > Man, we’re getting riled over a fictional character, aren’t we? Let’s pick on someone else next, like maybe Madame Bovary. She needs it, the hussy! 😃 > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Rhythmdvl \* That’s all from me right now, I have to go get another cup of coffee and listen to Broken Down Palace.[sup]_[/sup] Yes, I know. I was illustrating a point. 😛 ) > > \*\* > > Just curious - and don’t mean to be a nooge! - the point there **was** that you misspelled the name of the song, right? 🆒 You’re all right, **Rhythmdvl** , you Smokey Bear-lover, you! > “Strangers stopping strangers just to shake their hands.” \*\* Let me add here that the editorial standards of the World Book are generally agreed to be impeccable. If my 1960 edition says it’s Smokey THE Bear, then I have to believe that it actually **was** Smokey The Bear at the time when the encyclopedia was published. Though I’ll admit that in certain social, political, and historical spheres this encyclopedia was very much skewed by the state of the culture as it then existed–for instance, the article on Marijuana is a real reefer-madness hoot–but I hardly think this sort of editorial creation of facts extends to the names of mascots of federal agencies. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/25 "2001-01-09T23:05:36Z")
**Rhythmdvl** notwithstanding, it appears that THE wins hands down. I note that **Blue Sky** thinks that ‘Smokey Bear’ is deeply grating on the psyche; I responded by saying I felt the same way about ‘Congo’ and ‘Ukraine’ (I’ve discussed those issues in other threads). I think, however, that when you are used to hearing something a certain way, as most of us have usually heard the name ‘Smokey THE Bear’, it becomes, so to speak, part of the grammar of the language. By ‘grammar’ I mean grammar in the Chomskyan sense. I refer to his famous nonsense sentence [ul] **Colorless green dreams sleep furiously** [/ul] which is clearly grammatical even though completely nonsensical. If you turn it around so you have [ul] **Furiously sleep dreams green colorless** [/ul] it’s quite obvious that the second version sounds stranger, is more difficult to say and memorize, and so on. To most of us, that’s the way ‘Smokey Bear’ is. The Gov’t should just give in and put the ‘The’ back in. Java The Man 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/26 "2001-01-10T04:21:16Z")
I’ll assume you’re not calling me ignorant (naw, 'course not!:))…merely implying that my obstinance (and tongue-in-cheek contributions) contradicts what you have posted as facts based on the DOF website information. While mostly joking, the fact is that the website explaining Smokey Bear came along much later and is easy to type/edit (manipulate) at will, while the photos of early publications by said organization clearly show this bear with the nickname Smokey THE Bear or Smokey the Fire Prevention Bear, as the case may be. Actually, the OP doesn’t ask WHAT his name is…that point is conceded. It asks why they (the powers that be?) changed it, and I believe that we’ve provided sufficient evidence that they did in some way alter the name–that at some point they were using “Smokey The Bear” and shortened it to Smokey Bear. At the very least, they used both monikers simultaneously confusing EVERYONE. (All we poor kids wanted to do was read a comic and prevent forest fires.) I think a few people wanted reassurance they weren’t completely _nuts_, and that in fact, at some point the fictional character (based on a fire prevention campaign or a little bear in the woods) was referred to as Smokey THE Bear. He was–proper name or not–you’ll have to admit, he was. Finally, Bugsy Bunny and Howard THE Duck (not to mention Daffy Duck, Roger and Jessica Rabbit, and Tweety Bird–oops, guess I just did) just serve to confuse things more! :rolleyes: To THE HELL with all of them fictional characters. Of course, we could always compromise and say that “The” was Smokey’s middle name, and he decided to drop it based on advice from a sharp Madison Ave image consultant at a PR firm. [Couldn’t help it–I’ve recently seen Bob Newhart on “Biography.” Anyone else?] Hmmmmm…I wonder what Smokey (the) Robinson would think about this discussion? While I’m thinking of it…I’m not brave enough to see if there’s a [SmokeyBare.com](http://SmokeyBare.com) as it just might be a pornsite. [SIDEBAR: Anyone check out that collectors site? I find the Smokey — Bear ASHTRAYS a bit…odd, shall we say? Maybe “disturbing” is a better word. The one with the bear holding the matches is just TOO MUCH!] _Heck, I’m just waiting to see if this thread makes it to GD or the Pit._ 😉 \ Lets call the whole thing off! 😃 Peta ---
**Author:** ![Peta\_Tzunami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b487fb/32.png) [@Peta\_Tzunami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peta_Tzunami)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/27 "2001-01-10T04:28:43Z")
Just to help that “fighting ignorance” effort along, allow me… > [@](#): > > As to Peta the Tzunami’s comic book find - from the page **he** linked to: {Emphasis mine} I’m **Peta - the girl - Tzunami**! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![occ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8c91f0/32.png) [@occ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/occ)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/28 "2001-01-10T05:18:57Z")
Here’s a slight aside I’d like to propose: why exactly did Smokey (the) Bear get to be such a cultural phenomenon? C’mon, everyone’s heard of him, seen pictures of him, knows its an anti-forest-fire kinda gig. Why’d he become so engrained in the American psyche? Is it just that no other government agencies could come up with a cartoon character children could relate to? ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/29 "2001-01-10T05:44:47Z")
_pokes head in_ Isn’t anyone gonna mention Crow T. Robot? _un…pokes head back out (?)_ Great thread, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Whammo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Whammo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whammo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/30 "2001-01-10T05:52:32Z")
I mean… its not like they would just CHANGE it on us!!! ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/31 "2001-01-10T18:40:34Z")
> [@](#): > > …it appears that THE wins hands down Shame **javaman** , shame… for the only thing one can honestly say is that TRUTH _lost_. You posted your question to a website devoted to fighting ignorance, in a forum dedicated to questions of _fact_. It might be different had you posted in IMHO where surveys and polls hold weight. But in GQ, where there are verifiable facts to be located… I venture to say that a disservice has been done to the principles of this board. We are talking about a fictional character with a definite, identifiable beginning and a clear ownership. We are not talking about a tidbit of popular culture whose origin is shrouded in mystery and rumor. The artists and copyrighters who worked on the initial ad campaign are known. The original names are known. The earliest dates of ‘the’s’ insertion are known. The dates of the legislation protecting the name from trademark infringement are known. The dates of the ‘Smokey the Bear’ song are known. A clear and concise timeline can be constructed - it was Smokey Bear first, and continues to be simply Smokey Bear to this day. The song and various paraphernalia (ashtrays?!) were produced with ‘the’ in his name several years _after_ the campaign was initiated, and were quickly phased out. That many people identify that name with the Forest Service’s mascot does not change the facts of the icon’s origins. The ostensible purpose of this site / forum is for ferreting out such facts, all in the name of stomping out ignorance. You can call the mascot what you want. You can use the word irregardless in conversation. You can insist that the Life cereal kid died of poprock induced explosiveness. You can go to Snopes and find a host of things to believe in because that’s how people remember them. But it is an insult to the SDMB to weigh popular opinion over verifiable fact. For such furtherance of misinformation, you should be set afloat on the S.S. Honeybunch, doomed to forever tell your tale to others just like you - contemptible killers, bounders, and tiger stabbers. (And remember, NO TAFFEY!)😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/32 "2001-01-10T20:01:57Z")
What we are discussing is _not_ the bald fact of what the Forestry Service says it should be, but what it really is in the popular imagination. Popular misconception or not, Smokey remains ‘The Bear’ to many, if not most people. Perhaps I should have phrased my OP differently and asked, “Why would the Forestry Service attempt to foist its ‘Smokey Bear’ nonsense on the public when the ‘The’ version of the name had already become so ingrained into the popular culture as to be named in songs, and mentioned in encyclopedias?”. I was really after the phenomenon of this name change and how accepted it is, which as far as I can see isn’t very much after all these years. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/33 "2001-01-10T20:54:20Z")
And now, the mystery of Hot Foot Teddy. I once read Smokey’s original name was Hot Foot Teddy. I am guessing that is the name of the real Smokey, but it could have been the name of the character originally. A cartoon which must have been drawn at the time Smokey was rescued from the tree appears as the logo on the site Peta Tzunami found. The club is even called Hot Foot Teddy Collector’s Club. So, who is Hot Foot Teddy, and when did the change occur? ---
**Author:** ![djbdjb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@djbdjb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djbdjb)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078/34 "2001-01-10T23:56:30Z")
Discussing this to death on our own free time is one thing, but why should we spend a cent of taxes for ad campaigns to persuade people what Smokey’s real name is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-boomers-was-it-smokey-the-bear-or-smokey-bear/49078.md?page=1)