# Baby Factory Now Stands At 15 Kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 25, 2004, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052 "2004-05-25T20:21:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/21 "2004-05-26T00:26:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Forget anything extra like clothes That’s supposed to say _toys_ :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/22 "2004-05-26T01:24:37Z")
I said it before, and I’ll say it again: It’s a vagina, not a clown car! ---
**Author:** ![Stuffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@Stuffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stuffy)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/23 "2004-05-26T01:33:35Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I said it before, and I’ll say it again: It’s a vagina, not a clown car! That would make a great topic title on Jerry Springer. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/24 "2004-05-26T03:17:44Z")
A guy who worked with my father had five daughters, all of whose names began with a “J.” But this family makes that one (so far as the first letters are concerned) seem pretty normal. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/25 "2004-05-26T03:24:26Z")
You see, I’ve never been able to buy ‘placing a burden on the world’ argument. Aren’t we all in many ways? If placing a burden on the world is a crime then automobiles (not just SUVs) should be outlawed. And so should living past the breakeven point on ones productivity to upkeep ratio. If the world is so overpopulated that this sort of thesis becomes valid then serial killers are doing the rest of us a favor (Hey! More resources for me!) I’ve got one kid, another on the way, and rough plans for a third. That ain’t 15 but I don’t see that anyone has the right to criticize someone elses choices in this matter. If they can support them all (and all of you saying they can’t possibly I’d be interested in what hard data you’re running with there…not supposition but hard data) then more power to them. I think I’m smart. But I don’t think I’m wise enough to make someone else’s decisions for them. Nor am I wise enough to make decisions with inadequate data. ---
**Author:** ![SSgtBaloo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ac91a4/32.png) [@SSgtBaloo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSgtBaloo)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/26 "2004-05-26T03:37:44Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Because the world is overpopulated. Because the schools are overcrowded. Because it takes more fuel to transport them, more food to feed them, more tax dollars to support them. Because of increased burdens on hospitals, prisons, court systems, state resources. And because all of them will probably procreate at some point, further exacerbating the problems. You’re right, Chefguy. Let’s go kill them all. Better yet, let’s save some gas and just thin the herd where we are right now. :rolleyes: –SSgtBaloo (OTOH, I do tend to agree that these folks are waaaay too prolific, however.) ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/27 "2004-05-26T10:27:35Z")
The question isn’t really how many kids is a _particular_ couple having - this couple has 15, my husband and I have 0, others have 2 - but how many the _average_ couple is having. Here in the US, the birthrate is either at or just below the “replacement” rate - meaning without immigration our population would be holding steady or _dropping_ (as is happening in parts of Europe). So, while this particular family has 15 kids, there must be a lot of childless couples and/or non-reproducing singles to offset their production. The US is not contributing to overpopulation - although you could argue we’re heavily into resource depletion. ---
**Author:** ![Cerri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3bc359/32.png) [@Cerri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerri)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/28 "2004-05-26T11:34:59Z")
Still…better her than me. _shudders and checks the date of her next Depo shot, just to make sure she doesn’t forget_ ---
**Author:** ![AngelicGemma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/439d5e/32.png) [@AngelicGemma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AngelicGemma)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/29 "2004-05-26T11:49:11Z")
> [@Cerri](#): > > Still…better her than me. That’s _exactly_ what I was going to post. ---
**Author:** ![TeaElle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8491ac/32.png) [@TeaElle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaElle)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/30 "2004-05-26T13:22:35Z")
> [@hapaXL](#): > > Over the course of their life, the average American child will consume 30 times the resources a child in West Africa will consume. And the only way that this poses a problem is if you begin from a baseline presumption that all consumption of all resources is a bad thing. Not an assertion one could prove, by a long shot. As for **Larry Mudd** ’s assertion that these kids couldn’t be receiving adequate education being homeschooled because of their number, I can only say huh? Are you really suggesting these kids are getting less attention than a kid in a classroom with 30 kids, a number of whom have ADHD and an equal or greater number of whom just don’t give a damn, as is the norm in most public school settings? I’m with **Jonathan Chance**. It’s their lives, their choice. If this story included facts like the couple is sucking down every governmental entitlement program known to man – AFDC, food stamps, WIC, Section 8, etc. etc. – and still pumping out kids, then criticisms might be in order. But it doesn’t seem that they are, and therefore, it’s not really anybody else’s business. ---
**Author:** ![nocturnal\_tick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/3d9bf3/32.png) [@nocturnal\_tick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nocturnal_tick)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/31 "2004-05-26T13:30:43Z")
And also depending on how well the kids are educated, there are going to be 15 extra bodies that will soon be contributing to their country by working, paying taxes etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/32 "2004-05-26T14:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by Cisco > Forget anything extra like clothes They’re going to be very popular in High School, I can tell you that. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/33 "2004-05-26T14:55:16Z")
Boy, their deductions on each April 15 are enviable, aren’t they? Every once in a while Money magazine does a profile on a family with a herd of kids. The thing that strikes me, when I read stories about their daily lives, is how charges of “Wasting resources! Hard on Mother Earth” fall flat. Now, it’s true, they’re exceeding their “replacement” of two kids. But it’s striking how much less wasteful they are, as individuals, than families with fewer kids. No one in that family takes 20 minutes showers (I’m guessing the little tykes bathe three at a time). They rarely drive their automobile with one person in it. Those teenagers aren’t going to each have their own car when they turn 16. Probably not a lot of call for single-serving overpackaged food, either. In general, people in families like this know more about recycling, reusing, handing down, conserving, and sharing than the average American. I’m just having the one kidlet, so I don’t have an agenda in speaking for large families. I sure get a kick out of them, though. ---
**Author:** ![shijinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/34 "2004-05-26T15:14:47Z")
i agree with **qts** and **Larry Mudd**. some people like large families, some like them small. it’s their choice. unless they are unable to provide adequate care for the children. imho, that is a real possibility. i can imagine the nightmare of maintaining a household of fifteen children. toss home schooling across the grades into the mix… i’m morbidly curious as to what the daily time table for the parents must be like. also, are they prepared/able to send all their kids to study all the way? are they getting any outside help other than the certificate of whatever from the government? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/35 "2004-05-26T17:18:30Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > As for **Larry Mudd** ’s assertion that these kids couldn’t be receiving adequate education being homeschooled because of their number, I can only say huh? Are you really suggesting these kids are getting less attention than a kid in a classroom with 30 kids, a number of whom have ADHD and an equal or greater number of whom just don’t give a damn, as is the norm in most public school settings? Yes. Obviously. In even the worst overcrowded public school, that class of thirty kids are all on the same page. They’re learning one curriculum. The teacher has five or six hours per day to teach it, and three or four hours to mark papers, prepare the next days lessons, etc. In that situation, yes, there are going to be a few kids who could benefit from extra individual attention. There are _nine_ separate curricula required in the Duggar house. Sure, each “grade” has a 1:1 or 1:2 teacher-pupil ratio. For what? A half-hour a day? An hour? During which time the teacher’s attention is _minimally_ scattered by the five or six kids that are still in the infant/toddler stages, which are _on their own_ more than enough to keep any less-than-superhuman caregiver jumping every minute of the day? That situation is so wildly unpractical it boggles the mind what might possibly compell someone to undertake such a task. Oh, wait, I suppose it _could_ be explained if someone was more concerned with what their children _don’t_ learn than with what they do. Let’s take a look at [a bill sponsored by Jim Bob](http://www.arkleg.state.ar.us/ftproot/bills/2001/htm/HB2548.pdf). (PDF link) > [@](#): > > For An Act To Be Entitled > AN ACT TO PROHIBIT STATE AGENCIES AND OTHER PUBLIC ENTITIES FROM USING TAX DOLLARS TO PURCHASE OR DISTRIBUTE MATERIAL THAT THAT THEY KNOW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN CONTAINS, OR PRESENTS AS FACTUAL, INFORMATION WHICH HAS BEEN PROVEN FALSE OR FRAUDULENT; AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES. > > Subtitle > AN ACT TO PROHIBIT STATE AGENCIES AND OTHER PUBLIC ENTITIES FROM USING TAX DOLLARS TO PURCHASE OR DISTRIBUTE MATERIAL THAT THEY KNOW OR SHOULD HAVE KNOWN CONTAINS, OR PRESENTS AS FACTUAL, INFORMATION WHICH HAS BEEN PROVEN FALSE OR FRAUDULENT. > > […] > > (2) During classroom instruction conducted by state agencies, museums, zoos, public schools, and political subdivisions of the state, when any statement in instructional material is identified by the instructor to be a theory, the instructor shall instruct the class to make a marginal notation that the statement is a theory. > (3) Example of such theories include, but shall not be limited to: > (A) The theory of the age of the earth; > (B) The theory of the origin of life; > (C) The theory that homology in vertebrate limbs is evidence for common ancestry; > (D) The theory that the “geologic column” accurately represents different time periods on earth. The “geologic column” does not exist anywhere on the earth, except in textbooks; and > (E) The theory that fossils represents missing links between life forms. It can not be proven that any fossil had any offspring. > (F) Carbon, Radioisotope Dating. Shells from living snails were carbon dated as > being 27,000 years old. Here’s a [little article about Jim Holt](http://www.swtimes.com/archive/2004/May/23/opinion/brummett.html), Duggar’s pal and co-sponsor of the bill. > [@](#): > > By a staggering majority of more than two-thirds, Arkansas Republicans have nominated for the U.S. Senate a man named Jim Holt who declares that it is his Christian ministry to run for political office and fight for liberty. > > You simply must get a load of the guy. > > He is unemployed and supports his wife and eight home-schooled children on his part-time legislative pay and expense reimbursement as a state senator. > […] > > He says federal judges have done more than terrorists to harm the country, mainly by permitting abortions. He tried a couple of sessions ago as a state representative to pass a bill excising certain references to the evolution theory from the public schools’ science textbooks. […] > > He has a sense of humor. It separates him from certain others in the extreme religious right. For example, you cannot have nearly as much fun with Holt’s running buddy, Jim Bob Duggar, father of 15. Yeah, I have grave doubts that the twenty-three kids this pair have sired between them are receiving anything that resembles a reasonable education. Jim! Jim-bob! Use a jimmy! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/36 "2004-05-26T17:43:53Z")
> [@Eve](#): > > Jedidiah? _Jinger?_ > > I guess by children no. 26 and 27, Jim-Bob and Michelle will be down to naming them “Jailbait,” “Jell-O,” “Jockstrap” and “Jumper-Cable.” Thats what I thought (Jinger) until I realized they are probably pronouncing it Ginger. Thank God they picked J, it could’ve bene worse; they could’ve picked P. ---
**Author:** ![hapaXL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/94ad74/32.png) [@hapaXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hapaXL)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/37 "2004-05-26T20:41:15Z")
> [@TeaElle](#): > > If this story included facts like the couple is sucking down every governmental entitlement program known to man – AFDC, food stamps, WIC, Section 8, etc. etc. – and still pumping out kids, then criticisms might be in order. Not relevant to this story, but Fundamentalist Mormons in Utah (and other places in the West) who have huge families like this are eager and proud to receive as much welfare and governmental assistance as possible. They consider it to be “sticking it to the Man.” At least, according to **Under the Banner of Heaven** by John Krakauer. ---
**Author:** ![RandomLetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8edcca/32.png) [@RandomLetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandomLetters)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/38 "2004-05-26T20:45:47Z")
> [@Larry Mudd](#): > > There are _nine_ separate curricula required in the Duggar house. Sure, each “grade” has a 1:1 or 1:2 teacher-pupil ratio. For what? A half-hour a day? An hour? During which time the teacher’s attention is _minimally_ scattered by the five or six kids that are still in the infant/toddler stages, which are _on their own_ more than enough to keep any less-than-superhuman caregiver jumping every minute of the day? > > That situation is so wildly unpractical it boggles the mind what might possibly compell someone to undertake such a task. Well, back in the days of yoor one had a similar situation in one-room school-houses, with one teacher managing a class of kids of many age groups, and plenty of those kids got a decent education. You just have the older kids help out teaching the younger ones, and everyone ends up with a decent enough education. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/39 "2004-05-26T21:54:30Z")
> [@RandomLetters](#): > > Well, back in the days of yoor one had a similar situation in one-room school-houses, with one teacher managing a class of kids of many age groups, and plenty of those kids got a decent education. Decent relative to the time and place. Bible readings, arithmetic, some history and basic geography. Enough learning for someone who expected to get by in a rural community. (Even then, the teacher was usually a single woman – certainly without half-a-dozen tiny ones to look after during the day.) In modern America, educational standards are a little higher than they were in the 19th century. Think those kids have a chance of doing acceptably well on the SAT? Well-versed in the rudiments of English, mathematics, arts, music, science, geography, history, and computer studies? Have an introductory second language in there? These are all basic. If a quarter of those kids make it as adults in situations that wouldn’t also be attainable by people without a high-school education, I’ll bite off two of my fingers at the second knuckle and swallow. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052/40 "2004-05-26T21:58:44Z")
> [@RandomLetters](#): > > Well, back in the days of yoor one had a similar situation in one-room school-houses, with one teacher managing a class of kids of many age groups, and plenty of those kids got a decent education. You just have the older kids help out teaching the younger ones, and everyone ends up with a decent enough education. RUBBISH! The “little red schoolhouse” was even more overcrowded than today’s schools are. Farm families were _big_, and there was one teacher per building. They were horribly underequipped, often with 4 children per book. No school library. Qualifications of teachers varied wildly. Some were barely literate. Male teachers were savagely brutal, & often literally sadistic. Beatings administered for minor infractions often drew blood. "Problem " children were all treated as troublemakers–including the retarded, dyslexic, and immigrants who had a limited grasp of English. Usually, these children were beaten until they couldn’t take it anymore, & then simply stopped going. Teachers were often unqualified, were not permotted to marry & retain teir jobs, & were not permitted to date. Or drink. Or live in their own quarters. They were _required_ to board with the family of one of their students. For “moral reasons”. :rolleyes: And you mean “yore”, not “yoor”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-factory-now-stands-at-15-kids/247052.md?page=3)