# Baby falling through window **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 10, 2019, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816 "2019-07-10T02:09:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/181 "2020-01-26T15:17:01Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > ETA: And I don’t know what you mean about not being able to reach the lower window. Or at least I don’t know what you mean to suggest the grandfather or his attorney or the family or whichever mouthpiece got quoted for ten seconds in a news clip meant when they said that he said that he couldn’t reach the lower window. In the CBS interview, he said this > [@](#): > > So she’s down at the — looking at the — out the window, and the glass. I bent down by her, and then we always, like, when you’re — whenever we were at hockey games, we would bang on the glass, and it was fun, you know? So when I knelt down to be with her at that level, I couldn’t reach the glass, really, with my fingertips, so I knew she couldn’t. So that’s when I decided I’d pick her up," he said. “So I, you know, was trying to stand her on the railing. And it happened in seconds.” I don’t see how he could have meant anything other than what he said, that when he knelt next to the girl he couldn’t reach the window, so he knew she couldn’t and that’s when he decided to lift her up. Look at the photo in the article you linked , particularly the man’s foot. There’s no way an adult man kneeling down couldn’t have reached that window with his fingertips. So he’s lying about _why_ he picked her up. I don’t know why he picked her up (although I have my suspicions) but it wasn’t because he couldn’t reach the window kneeling next to her. The family’s lawyer says RCCL is creating a “false narrative” , but I’ve only seen them say two things - that the accident happened due to grandpa’s unforeseeable recklessness and in the court documents, they apparently say that “held her by and out of the open window for thirty-four seconds before he lost his grip and dropped Chloe out of the window,”. Which part of that is in question because of the reenactment ? He was certainly reckless, I can’t imagine how the cruise line could have forseen it and holding her “by and out of” the open window includes holding her “by” the open window. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/182 "2020-01-26T16:11:14Z")
The “and out of” part is the part that I don’t see in the video. The “by” part was never in dispute. But since part of their liability issue will no doubt have to do with just how obvious it was the window was open (from, what, 11 floors up?), and physical touch would tend to be an even more reliable way of telling that than sight, particularly with some kind of impaired or deficient vision, they would seem to have a vested interest in favoring a narrative in which the grandfather is supposed not only to have been stupid enough to hold a baby up to an open window (whether he knew it was open or not) but out of one. And yes, as if I need to say it, the family has a vested interest in this too. And the lawyers. With that said, I am particularly interested in—most concerned with—possible inconsistencies or… “overreaches” in the cruise line’s story because they, unlike the family, will have the power and resources at their disposal to manipulate the media and the court systems far more effectively than the family. It’s a power imbalance that poses far greater risk of an injustice or coverup being perpetrated than just this one old man, his no doubt distraught family, and the handful of lawyer(s) representing them. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/183 "2020-01-26T16:41:20Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > You are correct - the film does not indisputably “prove” anything one way or the other. But I suggest you are expecting a somewhat unrealistic - or at least extreme - degree of proof. > > It is quite unusual to have indisputable “proof” of just about any human action/interaction. If not conducted under controlled, clinical conditions, just about any video is subject to varying interpretation. And it can be essentially impossible to definitively rule out EVERY conceivable possibility. > > But not many instances require such irrefutable, indisputable proof. Most criminal actions require proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Civil actions require less - either a preponderance (50%+), or other more complicated calculations if contributory negligence or comparative fault is at issue. > > So you might wish to discuss what this video does or does not show in terms of those legal standards. > > I - and most other posters - seem to feel the film is sufficient to establish that the grandfather was VERY - in fact, primarily - responsible for this, and comes pretty close to eliminating just about any reasonably possible explanation other than that the GF - at least - fucked up. You are fair to view it differently. This really needs to be emphasized. ASL is simply asking for an impossible standard. It looks like the grandfather was offered[a plea deal](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cruise-ship-death-sam-anello-offered-plea-deal-in-death-of-granddaughter-chloe-wiegand-after-video-leaked/) for the charge of negligent homicide. If he would accept responsibility then no jail time. > [@](#): > > There’s no plea deal in writing yet, according to the attorney representing the Indiana grandfather. But he tells CBS News the agreement would require Anello to plead guilty to negligent homicide in the death of Wiegand. In exchange, he would get no jail time and minimum probation and supervision. Even for criminal cases, the video doesn’t have to prove the events 100% all by itself. It’s a critical piece of evidence but not everything. Looking online, [Free Legal Advice](https://criminal-law.freeadvice.com/criminal-law/violent_crimes/negligent-homicide.htm) has the elements for criminal negligence. I don’t know if this applies to Puerto Rico, but I use it. The first element that the prosecution must prove that the defendant was aware of unjustifiable risk associated with the events that led to a death. IMHO, if the grandfather knew that the window was open then this would be clear because any reasonable adult would know the risk of having a toddler that close to an open window with an 11-floor drop onto concrete would be fatal. The defense will argue that the grandfather would have no idea that the window was open. Unless I heard from an expert saying otherwise, the claim that colorblindness would mean he couldn’t see the difference between an open and closed window seems farfetched to he. This video seems to support the charges against the grandfather. The question if he should be prosecuted or not is a separate issue. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > You’re missing the point (at least I think). I’m not arguing for any particular standard of proof, only that this video doesn’t seem to show anything that hasn’t already been stipulated by either party. That is (what it shows): > > -The grandfather got within inches of the window before he dropped a baby out of it. > > Well, yeah. Of course he did. He said he was holding the baby up to it. Did he know the glass wasn’t there? Well, if the video showed that he stuck his head out the window, then I would say that there is very clear evidence of that, and I would have to agree: he knew the glass wasn’t there. BUT the video doesn’t show that. I can see how people might think it shows that, seeing as how he leans forward so far he disappeared from view, but as I said upthread, the angle of the window and the spacing between the vertical columns, the wooden railing, and the windowsill leave plenty of room to bend forward out of view and still not break the plane. > > So we come back to “the video shows clear evidence that he got to within inches of the window opening and held a baby to it” (my description of events in quotes). Which, I say again, was never in dispute. > No, I really don’t. I’m satisfied he got to within inches of an open window, which he may or may not have thought was closed somehow, in spite of being within inches of it, and held a baby to that opening, possibly expecting there to be glass there that would support all or part of the baby’s weight. And even then, with the most charitable interpenetration (that he thought the window was shut and he thought the glass would support all or part of the baby’s weight) I think he’s an idiot, and ought to be prosecuted. > But I _ **don’t** _ view it differently. I just question how some posters seem to have reacted to this video as if it settles some facts in dispute when, in my view, it does not. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’ve already been asked if I’ve ever held a baby before… and of course this was an 18 month old bordering on a toddler, so… how much do those weigh? Is it practical to hold one with arms straight out and horizontal? I mean, is it something one would want to do, or would it get pretty tiring pretty quickly. I myself have only held comparable weights in comparable positions under physical training conditions I’d only half-jokingly call …just sort of torture." Which is perhaps why the family’s reenactment has precluded an “arms outstretched and horizontal” posture. If anything, it seems like the difficulty of holding a child in such a position does more to support the “he didn’t extend to the point to where he’d have had physical contact with the window” side than the “of course he had to have been holding the baby out of the window, either doubled over or with arms outstretched” side. Especially since it appears someone his height wouldn’t be able to “double over” with the height of the railing relative to the waist. > > I would not be the least bit surprised to learn (as the family alleges) that the cruise line is withholding other camera angles. On general principle, as a matter of holding industry accountable regardless of how much blame the grandfather bears (and he does bear the bulk of it IMHO, whether he knew the window was open or not), I hope the family is at least successful in requiring the cruise line to make all the footage available, not just the footage that makes it appear that grandfather did something he apparently (going off the re-enactments) couldn’t have done (stick his head out the window). > > And for anyone is confused as I’ve been the last half hour or so, this is the article that includes the photo that suggests the grandfather couldn’t have put his head out the window: [Royal Caribbean accused of lying about toddler's fatal fall](https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/news/2020/01/23/royal-caribbean-accused-lying-toddlers-fatal-fall/4556656002/) > > Unfortunately, I haven’t been able to find an article that has all or even more than a couple of the photos from the family’s lawyer’s re-enactment, which seem to paint a much clearer picture, both literally and figuratively, of the geometry involved than wha the cruise line has released. > > ETA: And I don’t know what you mean about not being able to reach the lower window. Or at least I don’t know what you mean to suggest the grandfather or his attorney or the family or whichever mouthpiece got quoted for ten seconds in a news clip meant when they said that he said that he couldn’t reach the lower window. It’s confusing enough without everyone rushing to pre-judge what exactly happened based on video evidence that’s been claimed (by the cruise line) as showing us things that it cannot, or at least does not clearly show us (referring here again to the posters who—quite understandably given the camera angle, I’ll grant—concluded that the video showed the grandfather sticking his head out the window). > [@doreen](#): > > His head didn’t necessarily pass through where the window pane would have been - but when he says he couldn’t reach the glass, in ordinary speech, that would mean that he fully extended his arm and didn’t touch the glass. It couldn’t have been when he was kneeling next to the standing child, as the railing wouldn’t [interfere](https://media.viafoura.net/viafoura_dx54dxryyj48oo84g48cs04k84804gc_x.jpg) ( and in truth, I can’t she why she couldn’t reach it standing on the floor) and it couldn’t have been when he lifted her up, because although I wouldn’t want to bet whether the railing was six inches from the glass or twelve, it’s [obviously](https://media.viafoura.net/viafoura_be3au8w6xnkk8cos8gkk4os40o0kggw_x.jpg) not three feet away. As it happens, the family’s lawyer [says](https://wsbt.com/news/local/local-family-of-girl-who-fell-from-cruise-ship-window-says-royal-caribbean-lied-in-court) that grandpa couldn’t have put his head out the window, because the railing is 18 inches from the window. Ok, so grandpa couldn’t have leaned over the railing with his feet on the ground and gotten his head past where the window would be. I will totally buy that - what don’t buy is that he couldn’t reach the window below the railing and that’s why he held her up. That’s what he said in the CBS interview - and also that even after he lifted her, he still couldn’t reach the glass and therefore leaned further forward. I notice that in the reenactment, the arms were not ever shown fully extended and that the average adult’s arm+ hand is more than two feet long so his hand absolutely would have broken the plane of where the window would be if he was truly trying to reach the window. > > ``` > I don't think the man deliberately dropped his granddaughter. I think that for whatever reason, he decided to hold the girl up to get a better view and is making up the whole business about banging on the glass. But the one thing I'm absolutely certain of is that he's lying when he says that he couldn't reach the window that according to the family's lawyer was 18 inches past the railing. > > ``` ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/184 "2020-01-26T16:49:25Z")
Sorry, that got posted before I was ready. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/185 "2020-01-26T17:31:32Z")
Yeah, I don’t see how the claim that he could not reach the glass when kneeling makes ANY sense. See how he moves his arm in the interview - the glass at that level was WELL within reach of an outstretched arm. This purported explanation/excuse makes no sense. And nice photo in front of the fraternal order of police symbol. FUCK YOU for trying to get sympathy or gain credibility as a retired cop! ---
**Author:** ![chela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chela/32/21582_2.png) [@chela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chela)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/186 "2020-01-26T17:35:02Z")
I want to see Sam Anello reenact the incident on the 11th deck of the cruise ship.:mad: would that be cruel and unusual, show us how you dropped the baby over board, which way did she tumble all the way down since you watched her. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/187 "2020-01-26T18:03:15Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > This really needs to be emphasized. ASL is simply asking for an impossible standard. No, I’m really not. I’m taking issue with a string of comments, that culminated in this (bolding mine): > [@Enola\_Gay](#): > > The first time I watched the video, it was on my phone and it was hard to see exactly what transpired. **But I just watched it on my desktop and it’s clear as day. Grandpa leaned over and stuck his head/upper body way out the window (so he clearly knew it was open). Then he reached down and lifted up the toddler over the guard rail and put her entire body through the window**, then somehow lost his grip on her after about 30 seconds. > > Unless he was _trying_ to kill this child, which I don’t believe, then his actions make no sense at all…unless he had been drinking and lost all judgment. Does anyone know if he had a breathalyzer or blood test after this incident? So do you, **TokyoBayer** , agree or disagree that the video in question shows, “clear as day” or otherwise, that grandpa stuck his head/upper body out the window, and then put the toddler out the window too? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/188 "2020-01-26T18:20:47Z")
And I want to go back to my verrrrrry first post in this thread (back when the board was still split on whether or not grandpa should be charged, and it wasn’t quite as cool yet to curb-stomp the grieving family), where I said: > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I know that you’re asking this more of the “grandpa should not be charged” people, but to anticipate some of the arguments against charging grandpa (actually, some have already been made) I think it’s important to consider the deterrent effect that prosecuting negligent acts that lead to death or injury. > > Not necessarily to deter future negligent acts (I am one of those people who thinks that people aren’t always rational actors and it’s hard to legislate “good judgment” into them), but to eliminate a possible vector that would allow deliberate acts to be disguised as negligence, much in the same way that self-defense laws can possibly be abused to disguise a contrived scenario in which the murderer tries to blame the victim for provoking the violent encounter. Which isn’t to say that I think we should eliminate self-defense as a defense to a charge of murder or manslaughter, only that I think we need to weigh the potential for abuse for certain defenses. > > In short, I don’t think “I was just an idiot and made a bad decision,” should be able to be used as an absolute defense against murder, even if proven (that is, even if we can all stipulate you were an idiot and made a bad decision), in the same way that “he tried to kill me” might be acceptable, provided that claim of self-defense is credible based on the totality of the evidence and the circumstances. > > It’s much easier to fake stupidity than self-defense, you know? > > ETA: Oh, but I do want to add this one thing. I don’t generally find it helpful to label people as stupid or an idiot, even if they were negligent. It’s just kind of mean, and overlooks how easy it is for any of us to make a careless mistake that could have unintended but disastrous consequences. So I use such terms here only as a sort of shorthand to get at the gist of what I’m saying, not necessarily as an assessment of the level of intelligence of anyone involved in this unfortunate incident. The surest way to make a dumb mistake is to assume you could not possibly make a dumb mistake. The genuinely intelligent are not immune. It has ALWAYS been my position that the grandfather should be charged, whether he knew the window was open or not, whether he stuck the baby out the window or not. I am not now, nor have I ever demanded, “an impossible standard” of evidence, as **TokyoBayer** and **Dinsdale** seem to want to claim. I am presently arguing about a specific point of fact—the claim that the video shows grandpa putting his head out the window, and then the baby—and arguing that whether that actually happened or not, the currently available (to us) evidence does not actually show that. I hope the facts matter to you. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/189 "2020-01-26T18:39:03Z")
I don’t understand what **ASL** is asking for, or what point they are trying to make, so I’m not responding to him/her. Watch the GF’s interview: He claims he could not reach the lower part of the window. BS - clearly false. He uses weasel words in describing that, saying something like he “sorta” could not reach it with his fingertips. He then says he held her in a bear hug, demonstrating with both arms clenched. He then says he tried to rap on the glass, modifying his 2-arm bearhug to 1-arm. The “recreation” with the doll portrays NOTHING like a 1- or 2-armed bear hug. I’m sure this guy is torn up, and I DO NOT suspect he intentionally killed the kid. But he IS a fucking liar. ---
**Author:** ![carrps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carrps/32/2957_2.png) [@carrps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carrps)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/190 "2020-01-26T18:45:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Disney has alligators on its property because Walt Disney World is in Florida, where there are alligators everywhere. The family didn’t sue because they weren’t fucking insane. Well, also, that family had been leaving food for the gators :eek: trying to get them to come closer. In direct contravention of Disney safety guidelines. It’s like the people in my neighborhood who refuse to lock up their dog/cat food outside and then are surprised when the coyotes eat their pomeranian. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/191 "2020-01-26T20:01:03Z")
I hope someone will help me out here, as my vision issues are interfering. I looked at the photo linked in ASL’s post, and can see a windowsill on the inside of the window. Then is there a ledge outside the window or is that the deck/street three stories below? And are the windows angled so the top is farther from the railing than the bottom? I 'm trying to _shudder_ reenact this (sans toddler). I’ve held toddlers up to (closed, ground floor) windows, and if they’re facing out, as Chloe would have been, my natural inclination would be to hold her with a hand firmly grasping each side of her waist while letting her feet rest on the windowsill, especially if the window is angled away from the railing. (Of course, this is with me assuming the window was closed.) Is it possible from the video to see how the step-grandfather is holding her as he leans forward? Finally, how does the window open? Has the entire pane simply been removed, or does it slide up somehow? It’d be harder to see the window was missing if the pane were simply removed. If it slides up, then it’s harder to think it’s closed. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/192 "2020-01-26T23:00:30Z")
In the video he was holding her as you described, straight out with both arms fully extended. His “bear hug, banging with one hand” line is a flat-out lie. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2020, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/193 "2020-01-26T23:26:52Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > In the video he was holding her as you described, straight out with both arms fully extended. His “bear hug, banging with one hand” line is a flat-out lie. Did we watch different videos? Because I can’t see his arms because of how the vertical columns, which are not part of the window, obstruct the view. This is the video I am watching: This is the point I keep trying to argue: people are claiming the video shows things that, to my eyes at least, it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Enola\_Gay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ab097/32.png) [@Enola\_Gay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enola_Gay)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/194 "2020-01-27T00:05:01Z")
[This is the one I watched.](https://twitter.com/YmrELMAJA/status/1207115424699158530?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1207115424699158530&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nzherald.co.nz%2Ftravel%2Fnews%2Farticle.cfm%3Fc_id%3D7%26objectid%3D12295345) ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/195 "2020-01-27T00:54:57Z")
> [@carrps](#): > > Well, also, that family had been leaving food for the gators :eek: trying to get them to come closer. In direct contravention of Disney safety guidelines. Really? I’ve read that someone who worked at the resort said that “guests sometimes would feed the alligators” there, but no accusations that the boy’s own family did. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/196 "2020-01-27T01:20:45Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Did we watch different videos? Because I can’t see his arms because of how the vertical columns, which are not part of the window, obstruct the view. This is the video I am watching: > > This is the point I keep trying to argue: people are claiming the video shows things that, to my eyes at least, it doesn’t. Get your eyes checked. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/197 "2020-01-27T01:35:52Z")
And because that was a bit snarky, this is what _I_ see in the video: he picks up the child, extends his arms fully outward and upward at around a 50 degree angle or so off the horizontal to lift her over the guardrail then lowers his arms back to around 0 percent off horizontal with his arms still extended. While you can’t see his hands, you _can_ see his shoulder and upper arm. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/198 "2020-01-27T01:47:14Z")
\*\* Enola Gay\*\*'s video link is a lot more definitive. I wish I hadn’t watched… ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/199 "2020-01-27T01:51:12Z")
The [cruise lines claims](https://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/crime/video-proves-grandfather-who-dropped-girl-from-cruise-ship-knew-window-was-open-cruise-ship-claims)\*–and video seems to support–that the step-grandfather leaned out the window for 8 seconds before picking up Chloe. My guess is he was checking out the view to determine if there was anything to show her. Then I think **Springtime for Spacers** nailed it: > [@](#): > > That stuff about banging on the (non existent) window makes me think that perhaps it was the poor child who didn’t realise that there was no glass and overbalanced attempting to bang on it as she was used to. At that point, the grandfather lost his one-armed grip on her. (You can clearly see his right arm in the still frames of the video.) So yes, I’m sure he knew the window was open, and he definitely made some terrible and foolish errors in judgment (perhaps with alcohol in his system). I don’t think the cruise lines was at fault, and I understand the negligent homicide charges now. What a horrible, horrible tragedy. I don’t think I could watch that video again. \*Excellent and short read. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2020, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816/200 "2020-01-27T02:01:30Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > And because that was a bit snarky, this is what _I_ see in the video: he picks up the child, extends his arms fully outward and upward at around a 50 degree angle or so off the horizontal to lift her over the guardrail then lowers his arms back to around 0 percent off horizontal with his arms still extended. While you can’t see his hands, you _can_ see his shoulder and upper arm. I disagree with your interpretation of events. That’s it. You’re claiming to see things that I cannot. And the video Enola Gay posted seems to be the same video, albeit with some arrows and trimmed to stop sooner and including sound. I do see his upper arm myself, but I see it down at his side, as if his forearms are across his chest (perhaps cradling the child). From there, he hunches forward, possibly to move to position (with difficulty, explaining the time) the child onto the windowsill, but I don’t really know. As I said, it’s a bad angle and the video is grainy. I don’t see arms straight out full extended, except maybe briefly as he’s moving her over the rail, and then I see the upper arms again as described above, which to me looks like holding the child to his chest. Maybe. FWIW, I googled the average weight of an 18 month old female child. It’s 23 pounds. Coincidentally, I have a 20 pound dumb-bell. So I, a physically fit (but not body-lifting, more of a cardio guy) did a little experiment. I tried to either “Michael Jackson” or “Lion King” with that weight. I can do it, but only with great exertion that I wouldn’t want to maintain for long. My arms start trembling almost immediately and I have to arch back to maintain my balance. My conclusion? I don’t see this much older, somewhat less fit (just going by the look of him) grandfather holding, or even attempting, a Lion King/Michael Jackson/arms-outstretched pose. What I suspect happened is that he had her to his chest and on the wooden railing until he hunched over, at which point he was still probably holding her fairly close. I expect that he got her feet onto the windowsill, and then expected to transfer some of her weight to the window, but there was no window there to hold her, and so he lost her. That’s my swag, because, I mean, like I’ve been saying, we can’t actually see what happens due to the poor quality of the video and the camera angle. ETA: > [@nelliebly](#): > > The [cruise lines claims](https://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/crime/video-proves-grandfather-who-dropped-girl-from-cruise-ship-knew-window-was-open-cruise-ship-claims)\*–and video seems to support–that the step-grandfather leaned out the window for 8 seconds before picking up Chloe. My guess is he was checking out the view to determine if there was anything to show her. Then I think **Springtime for Spacers** nailed it: This is precisely what I am trying to refute. Nothing clearly shows him leaning out the window, and the attorneys for the family have indicated (with a picture and a stand-in) that he’d have had to lift himself off the ground to double over far enough to poke out the window. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-falling-through-window/836816.md?page=11)