# Baby It's Cold Outside - date rapey? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 12, 2016, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546 "2016-12-12T20:04:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/81 "2016-12-13T19:28:43Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Or it might end up very well for you. It’s part of the young single males job to pressure women into having sex. Of course not every male is like that, but enough of us are to suggest it is fairly normal behaviour. If only we were more sensible in our testosterone filled randy youth. Why is the assumption women need to be “pressured” into having sex? The song is just as much, if not more, about the woman going through the motions of pretending she doesn’t want to be there as much as he does. There’s also a lot of social pressure in that “nice” girls aren’t supposed to just up and sleep with a guy because the weather’s crappy. Particularly at the time the song was written. Look, she obviously likes the guy, otherwise why would she be over his place in a blizzard? She says she had a good time. She doesn’t need eight verses to call it a night. And finally says “at least I can say that I tried”. Reflecting that she did her “due diligence” in attempting to reject his advances, failed to resist his charms, and can now sleep with him without appearing to be just some slut who has sex with any guy whenever the weather turns bad. All the guy is doing is giving her weather updates and offering drinks. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/82 "2016-12-13T19:41:00Z")
> [@Maurie](#): > > But that’s exactly my point. Your eye-rolling, dismissive attitude is exactly like the one faced by everyone who has ever pondered the appropriateness of any potentially offensive thing, ever. Don’t like the blackface in “The Jazz Singer”? Ugh, lighten up. It’s just a movie that is not and never has been about racism. I don’t set my moral compass by what others find offensive, especially not anonymous posters on the internet. I see (and respect, believe it or not) that you feel quite strongly about It (not the song, per se, but the larger issue). I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/83 "2016-12-13T19:49:09Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > It’s part of the young single males job to pressure women into having sex. It’s really, very, so much not okay to pressure women into having sex, and testosterone is no excuse. It’s that kind of attitude that adds the potential creepiness to this otherwise charming song. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/84 "2016-12-13T19:57:17Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Ah, the time-honored debate tactic of “Hey, look over there!” Not that at all. What I’m saying is that it’s difficult to say times have changed and what would not be offensive then is offensive now when in fact we hear far more sexist and ‘rapey’ lyrics daily. Would you dispute that? ---
**Author:** ![Maurie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Maurie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maurie)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/85 "2016-12-13T20:15:27Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > I don’t set my moral compass by what others find offensive, especially not anonymous posters on the internet. I see (and respect, believe it or not) that you feel quite strongly about It (not the song, per se, but the larger issue). I don’t. I guess I missed the respect when you referred to it as “dramatic and stupid”… 😉 I’m sorry if I seemed more riled up than I really am, and my frustration was not at you personally. But honestly, no, I don’t have a particular passion for this specific issue (the song or the potential influence of it), unless you meant the PC/anti-PC war, which I absolutely do get irked by. I just can’t understand why any time someone questions whether something may be a little inappropriate, a lot of anti-PCers immediately jump to the standard three comments (“lighten up”/“some people are looking for things to be offended by”/“society is too sensitive”), despite the fact that there _must_ be something that matters to _them_ that they would hate to have dismissed like that. I truly believe that a lot of the people who make those comments really don’t see that a lot of the things we take for granted as part of a respectful society now once were dismissed as whiny and oversensitive, and it just seems really short-sighted to me. ---
**Author:** ![Maurie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@Maurie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maurie)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/86 "2016-12-13T20:17:09Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Not that at all. What I’m saying is that it’s difficult to say times have changed and what would not be offensive then is offensive now when in fact we hear far more sexist and ‘rapey’ lyrics daily. Would you dispute that? I honestly can’t think of a single song (played unedited on mainstream radio, in shopping malls, etc) that fits that bill. Do you have an example? ---
**Author:** ![Hugh\_Mongoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8dc957/32.png) [@Hugh\_Mongoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hugh_Mongoose)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/87 "2016-12-13T20:17:13Z")
I somehow managed to avoid ever paying attention to the lyrics of this song until I was 23, which was 9 years ago. My girlfriend at the time wanted to sing it as a duet. Reading through the lyrics, specifically “what’s in this drink?” and “the answer is no” - a much-ignored line in the song where she explicitly declines - made me profoundly uncomfortable. Lacking cultural context, it came across as an aggressive man, and a woman looking for any excuse to leave, even up to saying “no” in no uncertain terms. So I’m going to land on the “didn’t age well” end of the spectrum, and feel that the song is likely nearing the end of its run in pop culture. I give it 20 years before it joins Song of the South among cultural relics. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/88 "2016-12-13T20:40:49Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > On the bold section - you could say that about lots of things and be correct, but in spite of that, those things aren’t considered acceptable anymore. Sorry, I disagree. It may not be acceptable on the SD message board, or The Guardian comment section, but it is the normal behaviour for a large number of males. It was common behaviour at the time of Plato, it was common behaviour at the time of The Pilgrims, it will be common behaviour in a century. The risks involved may have changed slightly, but the predatory sexual male is not a thing of the past. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/89 "2016-12-13T20:58:08Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Sorry, I disagree. It may not be acceptable on the SD message board, or The Guardian comment section, but it is the normal behaviour for a large number of males. It was common behaviour at the time of Plato, it was common behaviour at the time of The Pilgrims, it will be common behaviour in a century. The risks involved may have changed slightly, but the predatory sexual male is not a thing of the past. No one has said that the predatory sexual male was a thing of the past. Yes, it’s normal human behavior to disregard the wants and feelings of other people and attempt toimpose your will on them. That doesn’t mean it’s okay. It’s also normal and common to hit people who anger you. Also illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a8b319/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_wuzzy)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/90 "2016-12-13T21:26:45Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > No one has said that the predatory sexual male was a thing of the past. Yes, it’s normal human behavior to disregard the wants and feelings of other people and attempt to impose your will on them. That doesn’t mean it’s okay. **It’s also normal and common to hit people who anger you. Also illega** l. Not the same thing at all. Hitting someone who simply angers you is illegal; pressuring a women into letting you get as far as possible with her sexually is not. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/91 "2016-12-13T21:35:50Z")
I think a good part of my difficulty may be perceptual. Sure in the past (and still) there have been inconsiderate and predatory men. Sure, in the past (and still) there have been some women who lack the tools to effectively express their desires. But I think there are a heck of a lot more cases inside the extremes. My perception (based on no data) is that you hear a lot of mentions of date rape today, whereas in the past the woman might have said, “Boy, that was dumb of me. Why did I let that happen?” (Words used by my sister, when I asked her opinions of similar things.) As far as the PC wars, I see an analogy in many mental impairments. Sure, some people have PTSD or depression that really impairs them. A lot of folk in the past got undiagnosed and untreated. But my impression (based on my nonmedical contact with disability claimants) is that a hell of a lot of folk claim mental/emotional conditions - at least in party - because it absolves them of responsibility for their choices and actions. And a medical community is terribly happy to diagnose and treat. I’m all for pointing a spotlight on date rape, and encouraging different behavior by both genders. But when someone extends what I consider legitimate concerns to something as silly as this song - in my view, that weakens their overall position. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/92 "2016-12-13T23:35:35Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Not the same thing at all. Hitting someone who simply angers you is illegal; pressuring a women into letting you get as far as possible with her sexually is not. You’ve missed the point, which is that not everything that’s in human nature is socially acceptable. Everyone already knows that some people think it’s okay to pressure women to do things they don’t want to do. Not everyone thinks it’s some harmless youthful right of passage. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/93 "2016-12-13T23:51:23Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > He’ll never get it. > > He doesn’t even get that I’m not _offended_ by the song at all. I just don’t like it, think it’s coy and stupid, and think it sends a bad message. > > Your linked add, though. Now \*that \*offends me! He is a she. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2016, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/94 "2016-12-13T23:52:45Z")
> [@Maurie](#): > > I honestly can’t think of a single song (played unedited on mainstream radio, in shopping malls, etc) that fits that bill. Do you have an example? Not a recent example (and I’m not waving the “We hear rapey songs every day” flag) but if you want to complain about a popular song that throws consent out the window: > [@](#): > > I’m driving in my car > I turn on the radio > I’m pulling you close > You just say no > You say you don’t like it > But girl, I know you’re a liar > 'Cause when we kiss > Ooooh, Fire > > Late at night > I’m takin’ you home > I say I wanna stay > You say you wanna be alone > You say you don’t love me > Girl you can’t hide your desire > 'Cause when we kiss > Oh, Fire Now, obviously Springsteen didn’t intend the song to be “I’m date-raping his unwilling girl” but I think the fact that “Baby, It’s Cold Outside” has the woman singing her part so you get a playful inflection makes a big difference versus Springsteen singing about how his girl is lying when she asks him to stop. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/95 "2016-12-14T01:40:02Z")
> [@Maurie](#): > > I guess I missed the respect when you referred to it as “dramatic and stupid”… 😉 > > I’m sorry if I seemed more riled up than I really am, and my frustration was not at you personally. But honestly, no, I don’t have a particular passion for this specific issue (the song or the potential influence of it), unless you meant the PC/anti-PC war, which I absolutely do get irked by. I just can’t understand why any time someone questions whether something may be a little inappropriate, a lot of anti-PCers immediately jump to the standard three comments (“lighten up”/“some people are looking for things to be offended by”/“society is too sensitive”), despite the fact that there _must_ be something that matters to _them_ that they would hate to have dismissed like that. I truly believe that a lot of the people who make those comments really don’t see that a lot of the things we take for granted as part of a respectful society now once were dismissed as whiny and oversensitive, and it just seems really short-sighted to me. Duly noted. My snarky crack was really directed at **Just Asking Questions** , who implied that I either have no imagination, am totally insensitive and have no empathy. or am living under a rock. Even so, that’s not an excuse for me to escalate the uncivil talk. For the record, I am a “she” (thank you, **madsircool** ) and have more than a lot of peoples’ share of unwanted male treatment, including a “real” Law & Order SVU style assault perpetrated against me. You obviously had no way of knowing that. Now you do. My opinion hasn’t changed but I do apologize for lowering the tone. Maybe, and this is honestly not snark, this would be a good topic for Great Debates. ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/96 "2016-12-14T02:05:29Z")
> [@Fuzzy\_wuzzy](#): > > Sorry, I disagree. It may not be acceptable on the SD message board, or The Guardian comment section, but it is the normal behaviour for a large number of males. It was common behaviour at the time of Plato, it was common behaviour at the time of The Pilgrims, it will be common behaviour in a century. The risks involved may have changed slightly, but the predatory sexual male is not a thing of the past. Sorry for the double post but I want to comment on this. True story, friends, like it or not. It’s called “biology”. Shining the light on it is not a bad thing at all. Trying to teach our sons that it aint cool is also not a bad thing. But, sadly, it will not change _in the lifetime of anyone now reading this._ Plenty, if not the majority, of men don’t act that way, but it’s there and pretending otherwise is self-delusional. Wouldn’t it be more effective to take the proactive stance and teach - empower-our daughters to stand up for themselves? It’s not about “boys will be boys”, deal with it, it’s “some boys will be assholes, and this is \*how \*you deal with it”. Sorry, tangent over. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/97 "2016-12-14T02:09:59Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > Boy, am I glad I went to college 30+ years ago, and have been married for 31 yrs! :smack: This rant is only tangentially directed at you, but yours is a sentiment I see in many of these threads with old people professing confusion about the concept of “consent”. \*It’s not that fucking hard. \* I say this as a pathologically shy and clueless dude (and aging rapidly out of the “kids these days” demographic). There is plenty of room for both as much coy flirtation as you and the object of your affection want, and explicit and enthusiastic consent. The \*tiniest \*bit of dirty talk removes all ambiguity. If you get a no, or even just a lack of enthusiasm with whatever sexytimes you proposed? Back off, be a decent human being, and if you’re really desperate to get your rocks off, find a willing partner. If you’re particularly interested in someone that turned you down? You can still be friends with them, and hope that they change their mind, as long as you aren’t a creepy and entitled “nice guy” about it. Giving up on any pretense of avoiding gendered conventions: young women are, mostly, not shrinking violets that are completely incapable of saying “I want to _explicit sexual act here_”. Any that are have been failed by their parents and society. Getting back to the OP: I realize that the woman in the song was being as assertive and direct as society allowed. But that context also led to plenty of women who were saying more or less the same thing, but only out of fear and conditioning to be “nice”. Today, if I saw a similar interaction at any kind of social gathering, I’d feel obligated to butt in, to give the woman an easy exit if she wanted one. If she didn’t? I’ll bow out if they continue eye-fucking each other and changing the subject after I bring up “ZOMG THE LATEST GAME OF THRONES WAS SO AMAZING RIGHT GUYZ?” ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/98 "2016-12-14T02:23:32Z")
> [@WOOKINPANUB](#): > > Sorry for the double post but I want to comment on this. True story, friends, like it or not. It’s called “biology”. Shining the light on it is not a bad thing at all. Trying to teach our sons that it aint cool is also not a bad thing. But, sadly, it will not change _in the lifetime of anyone now reading this._ Plenty, if not the majority, of men don’t act that way, but it’s there and pretending otherwise is self-delusional. **Wouldn’t it be more effective to take the proactive stance and teach - empower-our daughters to stand up for themselves?** It’s not about “boys will be boys”, deal with it, it’s “some boys will be assholes, and this is \*how \*you deal with it”. Sorry, tangent over. Has anyone disapproved of doing that (except possibly Fuzzy\_wuzzy)? ---
**Author:** ![WOOKINPANUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wookinpanub/32/132_2.png) [@WOOKINPANUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WOOKINPANUB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/99 "2016-12-14T02:59:09Z")
> [@Omega\_Glory](#): > > Has anyone disapproved of doing that (except possibly Fuzzy\_wuzzy)? I don’t believe it was addressed. Not that it need be, _that’s not what this thread is about_. But since we’ve digressed from the OP, it seemed like we were discussing the state of the current mores regarding the underlying issue of males pressuring females into possibly unwelcome sex. I’m just saying that as a female, my well being is in my own hands. Sexual assault, obviously is another matter. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546/100 "2016-12-14T04:03:57Z")
Okay. I wondered if I’d missed something, you misunderstood something or if the question was a general point. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-its-cold-outside-date-rapey/774546.md?page=6)