# Baby Steps on the Road to Hell **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 10, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913 "2013-10-10T19:36:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![anya\_marie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ebca7d/32.png) [@anya\_marie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/anya_marie)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/21 "2013-10-15T08:52:23Z")
Yeah, this is lame, why isn’t it good enough that they have thier state’s divorce decree and have done with it? This is just punishment and hassle for women and men get off free. That is shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/22 "2013-10-15T09:53:06Z")
> [@Shmendrik](#): > > According to the latest survey, 35% of American Jews are Reform. > [A Portrait of Jewish Americans | Pew Research Center](http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/) Still: the biggest group, per that same survey. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/23 "2013-10-15T10:19:52Z")
friedo: > [@](#): > > Why don’t you just admit that your fairy tales are morally repugnant and have no place in modern society, and that the only reason you continue to observe them is because having coercive power over women gives you a boner? Because you can’t “admit” something that isn’t true. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/24 "2013-10-15T13:09:04Z")
**MOD NOTE:** Let’s keep it civil, folks. This… > [@friedo](#): > > Why don’t you just admit that your fairy tales are morally repugnant and have no place in modern society, and that the only reason you continue to observe them is because having coercive power over women gives you a boner? …is not appropriate in MPSIMS. If you want to bash each other’s religious beliefs or lack thereof, we have a Pit for that. ---
**Author:** ![LavenderBlue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e95f7d/32.png) [@LavenderBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LavenderBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/25 "2013-10-15T14:19:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > LavenderBlue: > > Well, what does religion mean to you? Does it mean finding some sort of like-minded group that shares the morals (and sense of fairness) that one comes up with in one’s own mind? Or is it the belief in some sort of greater world-truth that one, having accepted the underlying premise, feels obligated to follow, even if the details are something he finds hard to understand or even distasteful upon first hearing it? That’s not to say that I can’t answer to your question about legal power in marriage in a reasonable manner and have to resort to “G-d’s mysterious ways” - I certainly could. But I think that that’s also irrelevant, if the only thing arguing against it is a sense of likeability or personal sense of fairness. Gender equality is not something that one comes up with in one’s own mind. It is obvious. A god who says that women do not get the same rights as men do when they marry (as Orthodox Judaism does) is not a god worthy of respect. That kind of philosophy is a threat to the wellbeing of myself and my beloved daughters. Saying that we don’t know why but we just do something because is not much of a convincing argument unless you are speaking to five year olds. It is part of the reason why I found the five years I spent attending an Orthodox yeshiva so vastly unpleasant. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/26 "2013-10-15T14:34:57Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > aruvqan: > > That’s not the entirety of Jewish marital law. Halacha absolutely does NOT permit a husband to force his unwilling wife into sex. That said, there are certainly are expectations going into a marriage, and neither the wife nor the husband has the right to just up and decide unilaterally without penalty that they’re no longer willing to meet those expectations. The marital bond includes both rights and responsibilities. Heck, I knew that from watching Barbra Streisand & Amy Irving in YENTL. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/27 "2013-10-15T18:13:50Z")
The “get” issue isn’t the _best_ example of gender inequality in Orthodox Judaism. It is my understanding that the “get” issue raises its head because, while in theory a man’s permission is necessary, in reality the assumption is that where an divorce is otherwise legal that permission is not supposed to ever be withheld; in practice, if both parties do what they are supposed to do, the “get” is a mere formality. That’s why there are often serious - for the man - consequences where Orthodox men refuse to provide it (such as being ostracized by the community). Such refusal is seen as spiteful. That isn’t to say that Orthodox Judaism isn’t unequal, or that a “get” isn’t a relic of an inherently patriachal religious culture - only that, in practice, the inequality only shows itself where the process is used improperly. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/28 "2013-10-15T20:27:32Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > aruvqan: > > That’s not the entirety of Jewish marital law. Halacha absolutely does NOT permit a husband to force his unwilling wife into sex. That said, there are certainly are expectations going into a marriage, and neither the wife nor the husband has the right to just up and decide unilaterally without penalty that they’re no longer willing to meet those expectations. The marital bond includes both rights and responsibilities. So, theoretically since any woman can divorce the man by more or less telling he and the community, and HE is the only one that can sign the get, and make the divorce legal - how is this equality? She can not legally marry in a religious ceremony, nor bear any other man a child that is legitimate without the get, so she is being fucked over, and not in bed. So her only option is to stay married to the man, and never be able to marry someone she does want to boink. And while married, the man is entitled to a certain amount of sex. So how is this not forcing the woman to stay married? Historically her options tended to be married or prostitute. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913/29 "2013-10-15T20:38:58Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > So, theoretically since any woman can divorce the man by more or less telling he and the community, and HE is the only one that can sign the get, and make the divorce legal - how is this equality? She can not legally marry in a religious ceremony, nor bear any other man a child that is legitimate without the get, so she is being fucked over, and not in bed. So her only option is to stay married to the man, and never be able to marry someone she does want to boink. And while married, the man is entitled to a certain amount of sex. So how is this not forcing the woman to stay married? Historically her options tended to be married or prostitute. If the divorce is otherwise proper, he’s supposed to sign the get. Not doing so is a pretty serious offence within the Orthodox Jewish community - so much so, that it can result in ostracism, or worse. Under those circumstances, I’d be willing to bet the woman would not be required to perform any duties - as the man was not performing his (namely, signing the get). The situation does screw the woman over, because without a get, she can’t remarry with the faith (and neither for that matter can he - but presumably he doesn’t care). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/baby-steps-on-the-road-to-hell/670913.md?page=1)