back in the good old days... really?

Actually, while that SEEMS logical, it’s not.

There’s more black nostalgia than you’d think, especially in the South. No, no, no, I am NOT suggesting that any black Americans want a return to Jim Crow! But many elderly black folk will tell you, sincerely and truthfully, that in the days before integration, their communities were much better places to live thanthey are today. And in some respects, it’s clear that they’re right.

Segregation was evil, no two ways about it, but it had a few unintended benefits for blacks in the South. Since all blacks (whether poor or middle-class, whether educated or illiterate) had to live in the same part of town, and were barred from going to white restaurants, shops and theaters, many black communities in the South responded by building their own thriving shops, restaurants and theaters. And since a black doctor or merchant had to live in the same neighborhoods as black maids, black janitors and black sanitation men, there were a lot more positive black male role models for the children in segregated communities.

While the end of segregation was both desirable and necessary, there was a negative aspect to it: most well-off blacks left their old communities as quickly as they could, and moved to better areas that were now open to them. And partly for that reason, the neighborhoods they left behind were much worse off.

So, while you’ll NEVER see an old black man or woman in East Austin telling you “Boy, it’d be great if they’d repeal the Civil Rights Act of 1964,” you WILL find many who’ll tell you, wistfully, what a wonderful community they once had, and how the area has never been as pleasant a place to live as it was before integration.

**

As for Tom’s attempt at refuting my earlier post…come on, Tom, I KNOW you can do better! Violent crime rates WERE much lower in the U.S. in the Thirties than they were in the Seventies and Eighties (they’re substantially lower now). And my Dad wasn’t lying when he talked about riding the subways and streetcars with his friends of New York in the 1940’s without any adult supervision. Kids could and DID do such things in big cities, and nobody thought twice about it! Today, of course, parents who let 11 year olds ride the NYC subways to Yankee Stadium unaccompanied would be regarded as insane.

Again, there’s no doubt that our lives are, on the whole, a LOT better than they were. I don’t have any desire to hop into a time machine and move back to the Depression era. I merely note that nostalgia isn’t just a delusion. Some things WERE much better in the past. If it’s foolish to pretend that the past was a Paradise, it’s equally foolish to imagine that every aspect of life in our time is automatically better than it was a few decades (or even a few centuries) ago.

Here are four quotes from this site. Only two came since Christ was born. The Socrates quote was a popular poster in the 70s and may have been what **FairyChatMom ** was trying to remember.

Could you not chalk this up to increased awareness of crime, rather than actual increased crime? 60 years ago did you have a week long nationwide scare every time one child was missing? (Statement made to show general media coverage rather than any specific incident.) Would 11 year olds be actually less safe riding the subway today, or are parents today just more scared/cowed by the media?

I think that this is an improvement, not a problem. You have to earn respect by your behavior and knowledge. I do not respect people just because they have been on this planet a long time. Lotta people been on the panet a long time that are worthy of scorn rather than respect.

Kids yelling at their parents in public? Parents treating kids as young adults rather than servants? So? This affects my quality of life how?

I think you’re melding “respect” with “admiration” more than it needs to be. Respect really boils down to politeness. In this sense of the word, every human being should be shown respect: not because they deserve it, but because you are a civilized person.

I’m of the school that no one deserves rudeness. Showing lack of courtesy debases you, not the person you’re snubbing or insulting.

I’ve become more and more convinced that this rosy/nostalgic view of the past is a human constant. Every culture, every era, seems to express it in one form or another. Hell, you can go back to the epic of Gilgamesh, sometimes cited as the first story ever written down (c. 2500 BCE) and find that sentiment expressed.

I suspect that this has as much to do with perception as reality. The stories of child kidnappings in the 1940s and 1950s were big deals, but I have watched the actual kidnappings through the 1980s and 1990s in Cleveland, and they are no more numerous than the ones reported in the 1950s. As I noted, my mom was lured away around 1920–which may have led to my being raised in a more fearful environment than I have raised my kids. However, I know parents who will forbid their children from certain unaccompanied activities that I know are reasonably safe with other kids, including mine, engaged in them without incident.

It is true that there was an unexpected low in the homicide rate in the 1950s and early1960s, (a rate that we are approaching, now), but the rates in the 1920s and 1930s were nearly as high as in the 1980s and 1990s and the 1940s were comparable to the late 1960s and 1970s. In addition, when comparing the homicide rates of the more recent decades, it should be noted that for most areas of society, they were rather low, anyway, with the rates in the very poor neighborhoods of major cities skewing the numbers, badly. (I would not be surprised to learn that similar demographics skew the numbers of the earlier decades. For the majority of rural, suburban, and urban communites wealthier than the poorest, safety has tended to be based as much on perception as on reality.)

I don’t believe that for a second.

My grandma is one of the most sentimental people I know, and I’ve known lots of the old black people that astorian was talking about.

Hell, Wu-Tang wrote a whole song about how black people so often sit around talking about “the good old days.”

Does anyone know offhand when the crime rate in NYC reached its lowest point? If I had to guess, I’d say during WWII.

ISTR the panic over “juvenile delinquency” started in New York in the early '50s (viz. Blackboard Jungle, set in 1952) and spread to the other big cities a few years later.

I think it goes in cycles for each civilization. Like the Roman quote cited above suggests, good times come and go. For America, I think some things used to be better, and some worse. I think families and neighbors used to be closer, and that’s a good thing. But prejudice used to be worse. I think it also can be cyclical within a person’s own lifetime. Money used to mean much less. We really didn’t know how poor we were as children. And that was a good thing. But now, even though we have much more stuff, I’m not sure we’re any happier. So, up down around and round…

I’d like to put in my two cents about the “good old days”. These being the ones that my friends’ parents talk about; i.e. 40’s through 70’s.

Just remember: it wasn’t until the 70’s that non-whites really had a chance in “regular” society. And I most definitely am non-white.

I know most of you *like * diversity, like being with people different than you. It wouldn’t have been like that. You and I would barelyt have met, unless I was doing your laundry or babysitting your kids.

That’s my take on it…I could also start in on the fact of how much freedom I have as a woman these days, but I think you guys get the idea. :slight_smile:

Some things were better, no doubt about it.

Kids were freer, less regimented in the old days. My grandfather used to come home from school at the age of nine or ten, grab his rifle, and go rabbit hunting completely unsupervised. He loved doing this, and his parents liked having the extra meat on the table. Today, a ten year old wandering around with a loaded gun would bring out the cops, and the kid and his parents would wind up in jail.

Even my generation, growing up, would have hours and hours of completely unsupervised time away from the parents and in unstructured activities. This seems to be a thing of the past, and I don’t know that it’s good for kids. It can’t prepare them well to be independent and assertive.

I’m rather young, having done my elementary school during the mid-1980s, and I take issue with the children these days aren’t as safe talk.

I had a carefree childhood. I spent most of my free time roaming the woods surrounding my neighborhood, out of calling distance. My friends had BB guns, we went fishing, we jumped out of trees. All this in a middle class suburban neighborhood in the South. I’m sure this lifestyle is still possible today–It’s probably a matter of location and economic status.

There isone trend that I see today that seems to be unique toour era…that is the wholesale abandonment of intellectual goals, by some large segements of young people.I’m talking about willful ignorance, and the rejection of learning…the kind of thing that Bill Cosby has commented on. How do these kids think they will survive? Ebonics is one thing, but if you refuse to learn some basic math, you are in for a lifetime of being cheated on credit terms, installment payments, etc. If you reject learning how to speak proper english, you can forget about a job in sales or customer support.
This seems to be a new trend…one that doesn’t seem to have happened in the past generations. :confused:

From this page, using the inflation calculator, 35 cents in 1964 has the same puchasing power as $2.14 in 2004. I filled up my car over the weekend at $1.89 per gallon.

From a friend, with the subject line:

We’re Children of the 70’s, We Should Be Dead:
(Don’t know who wrote it, or if it’s been posted on the SDMB previously):[ul]
[li]Our baby cribs were covered with bright colored lead-based paint. [/li][li]We had no childproof lids on medicine bottles, doors or cabinets, … and when we rode our bikes, we had no helmets. (Not to mention the risks we took hitchhiking.) [/li][li]As children, we would ride in cars with no seatbelts or air bags. [/li][li]Riding in the back of a pickup truck on a warm day was always a special treat. [/li][li]We drank water from the garden hose and not from a bottle. [/li][li]Horrors! We ate cupcakes, bread and butter, and drank soda pop with sugar in it, but we were never overweight because we were always outside playing. [/li][li]We shared one soft drink with four friends, from one bottle, and no one actually died from this. [/li][li]We would spend hours building our go-carts out of scraps and then rode down the hill, only to find out we forgot the brakes. After running into the bushes a few times, we learned to solve the problem. [/li][li]We would leave home in the morning and play all day, as long as we were back when the street lights came on. No one was able to reach us all day. No Cell Phones![/li][li]We did not have Playstations, Nintendo 64, X-Boxes, no video games at all, no 99 channels on cable, video tape movies, surround sound, personal cell phones, personal computers, or Internet chat rooms. We had friends! We went outside and found them. [/li][li]We played dodge ball, and sometimes, the ball would really hurt. [/li][li]We fell out of trees, got cut and broke bones and teeth, and there were no lawsuits from these accidents. They were accidents. No one was to blame but us. Remember accidents? [/li][li]We had fights and punched each other and got black and blue and learned to get over it.[/li][li]We made up games with sticks and tennis balls and ate worms, and although we were told it would happen, we did not put out very many eyes, nor did the worms live inside us forever. [/li][li]We rode bikes or walked to a friend’s home and knocked on the door, or rang the bell or just walked in and talked to them. [/li][li]Little League had tryouts and not everyone made the team. Those who didn’t had to learn to deal with disappointment. [/li][li]Some students weren’t as smart as others, so they failed a grade and were held back to repeat the same grade. Horrors! Tests were not adjusted for any reason. [/li][li]Our actions were our own. Consequences were expected. The idea of a parent bailing us out if we broke a law was unheard of. They actually sided with the law. [/li][li]This generation has produced some of the best risk-takers and problem solvers and inventors, ever. The past 50 years have been an explosion of innovation and new ideas. We had freedom, failure, success and responsibility, and we learned how to deal with it all. [/li][/ul]

Of course the people who lived in the 70’s and are reading this list are still alive. After all, the people who did these things in the 70’s and died are not likely to read this list. That does not mean that none of these things are bad, just the people still alive weren’t killed by them. Hey! Random gun violence is OK! I haven’t been killed by it!

My dad was in the Army, and I grew up on military bases all over the U.S. and in Germany. In my experience, military communities, even in peacetime, pull together and provide a good, steady environment for raising children. At the age of ten (1981) I lived in Fort Bragg, NC, in a housing area set aside for officers who had families. It was a five minute bike ride from a similar area for NCO families, and it all pretty much blended into a single community without much consideration for rank.

As soon as we moved in, our family name went up on a sign outside the house, and we started getting a flood of neighbors coming over with casseroles, offers of assistance, and invitations to come by and meet the kids. Every other house likewise had the family name posted in plain view, so it was a simple matter to learn who lived where, and which families had kids your own age. Families with “problem children” were identified quickly and the entire community parental network kept their collective eyes on them. Race, creed, and color were never issues that kept kids apart. I had best friends who were Black, Latino, Korean, and God-knows-what-else, and nobody ever made a big deal of it. A family’s non-European or non-Christian heritage was more of an interesting quirk than anything to get worked up about.

During summers and on Saturdays I was free to wander through the nearby forest, ride my bike miles away from home, visit other kids’ houses at will – and all without asking my parents. Since Saturday cartoons were over at noon, and most people believed that Atari would ruin your TV, couch potato kids were unheard of. We had basketball and tennis courts nearby, swimming pools, an ice rink, horse stables, a bowling alley, summer camps, and an activity center to keep us busy. If my parents were ever concerned about my wanderings around the neighborhood, they kept it pretty well hidden.

A fairly typical scene from my boyhood was something that happened now and then around 5:00 on warm weekday evenings. Since most everybody’s dad got home from work around the same time, it would be normal to see five or six or them standing in the street (we lived on a cul-de-sac) in their camo fatigues and combat boots, shooting the breeze and kicking a soccer ball around while trying not to spill their beer. It was not at all unusual to have paratroopers landing in the field behind our house, or to have the 82nd Airborne Choir performing at our school and singing an only slightly edited version of Blood on the Risers to the giggling mirth of the third graders. Your average army brat was quite accustomed to going by military time (13:00 hours for 1:00 pm) and could convert to and from “civilian time” without thinking twice. Most of my friends couldn’t name more than a few pro football teams, but they could tell you about most of the major engagements of World War II.

During times of crisis, everyone pulled together even more. I recall when a massive training jump out in the California desert went horribly wrong and a number of soldiers were dragged to their deaths by high surface winds. My cub scout troop’s scoutmaster was among the dead. I remember clearly the way everyone went out of their way to provide every kind of support to the families who had lost a loved one. During the Iran hostage crisis, there was hardly a house in the entire area that did not have a red, white and blue flag emblazoned with the number 52 hanging on the front door to represent the Americans held in captivity.

Displays of patriotism were pure, unashamed, and unstained by partisan animosity. When the main post flag was lowered at 17:00, everyone within hearing range of the bugle stopped what they were doing, faced the flag, and saluted during the short ceremony. The Forth of July was a huge holiday that everyone looked forward to. Crowds would pack the parade field to witness the 50-gun Salute to the Nation. We kids especially enjoyed the Army band’s annual performance of The 1812 Overture, complete with howitzers. Uncle Sam was not just the provider of Daddy’s paycheck – he was the symbol of our homes, our schools, our lives. There were the unavoidable complaints about bureaucracy and base politics, but the idea of the federal government as an evil, insidious entity was as foreign to us as spoken Sanskrit.

Another thing that made this idyllic boyhood so incongruous was the fact that we lived a few scant miles from Fayetteville, a town that was plagued by violent crime, poverty, and racial intolerance. Fort Bragg was at the time (don’t know if this has changed) an open post. No guards or even gates at the borders. There was no physical boundary to keep the criminal elements out. Yet, to the best of my recollection, they stayed away in droves.

Many years (and several changes of station) later, my father retired from the Army and we moved off-base for the first time I could clearly remember. The difference was startling. Even after 15 years in the same house, I have yet to meet more than a handful of neighbors. Nobody knows anybody else or shows the least inclination to do so. Kids rarely play in the front yards, and the parks remain empty most of the day. My parents, convinced that the neighborhood was gang-ridden, virtually forbid my younger brother from venturing out of the house unchaperoned. Not only do people lock their doors and windows at night, but they install heavy wrought-iron grills with deadbolts over them as well. Although my daughter is only five, I cannot imagine granting her as a ten-year old even a fraction of the freedom I had at that age.

I understand that a lot of what I treasure from my boyhood are products of a world viewed through childish obliviousness to the ugliness of reality, and of my own highly selective memory. I understand that violent crime has steadily decreased over the past twenty years, and that my daughter is probably safer now than I ever was at her age. I understand that Uncle Sam does not always act in ways that are right and just, that America is not universally acclaimed as a bastion of freedom, and that many of our own citizens would rather swallow broken glass than salute the flag. I understand that a multicultural community living in harmony is the exception rather than the rule, and always has been. And yet, even so, I prefer to cling to the belief that it is the world that has changed, and not a change in myself, that makes me see bygone days so rosily-tinted. I was raised with the belief that America was a shining beacon to all the world, just as sure as the sky is blue and that fire is hot. And I would rather hold on to this with every last fiber of my being, and see my childhood as “normal” than give in to the cynicism, fear-mongering, and national self-loathing that so predominates our media.

So at the ripe old age of 33 I very definitely look back at my childhood as “the good old days”. Who could blame me?

I think that you are incorrectly melding politeness with Respect
From dictionary.com
“respect
To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.”

If you mean politeness, say politeness. I believe in politeness for all. However, respect (Deferential regard), should be earned, not given.

First of all, I have to compliment you on a moving and touching post. It sounds like you had a wonderful childhood, and I hope you instill that same sense of community and patriotism in your children.
But, I have to ask, what media-dominating national self-loathing are you talking about? I hear it mentioned from time to time, but I’ve never witnessed it myself.

Even Fahrenheit 9/11, which I think many people would point to, is (to me, at least) obviously a work of love for America.

People wouldn’t be so passionate in their criticism of the current administration, and the current state of the nation, if we didn’t love the US and what it (ideally) stands for so much.