# Back-story on Russia's SpecMilOp in Ukraine **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Tags:** ukraine-invasion\ **Created:** [September 30, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921 "2023-09-30T20:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/1 "2023-09-30T20:00:00Z")
At least one Russian has come right out and said it out loud, > **[Russian state TV lays out plans for new empire](https://www.newsweek.com/russian-state-tv-russian-empire-restore-sergey-mardan-1830854)** > > Sergey Mardan has claimed Russia could restore its long-abandoned empire. They are about restoring the tsar-like Russ empire. He says going back 800 years worth. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/2 "2023-09-30T20:20:14Z")
That’s a fairly consistent or at least recurring theme in Russia’s national psyche since the late Romanov days. Kind of like how we hearken back to the Founding Fathers, they’re very fond of the Kievan Rus as their origin story. And also not by accident that represents just about the historical high water mark of the extent of Russian-controlled lands in Europe. It’s always amazing to me to notice that whenever somebody gets an expansionist bee under their bonnet, the “correct” historical period to demarcate “naturally ours” from “naturally not ours” always turns out to be whenever “ours” was biggest. And sometimes we even have to pick different centuries to get the highest high water marks in all directions. But it’s always “all ours” thereafter. Odd that. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/3 "2023-09-30T20:30:41Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > At least one Russian has come right out and said it out loud Were they ever shy about this? Putin has always openly embraced _Russkiy Mir_. I’m pretty ignorant about this stuff, but it sounds like more-or-less the same thing? > **[Russian world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_world)** > > The "Russian world" (Russian: Русский мир, romanized: Rússkiy mir) is a concept and a political doctrine usually defined as the sphere of military, political and cultural influence of Russia. It is a vague term, mostly used to refer to communities with a historical, cultural, or spiritual tie to Russia. This can include all ethnic Russians and Russian speakers in neighboring states, as well as those who belong to the Russian Orthodox Church. The concept of the "Russian world Philologist Andrey D... ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/4 "2023-09-30T21:19:54Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Putin has always openly embraced _Russkiy Mir_. And, of course “mir” also means “peace”. Kind of reminds me of when Bush I said “a new world order”, my cousin translated that to “_just do like_ we _say and nobody gets hurt_.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/5 "2023-09-30T21:35:31Z")
Yeah. There are several nations that equate “world peace” with “We are the only big power on a planet of pipsqueaks we either own or control.” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/6 "2023-09-30T21:50:42Z")
As my dad’s favorite dad joke goes (it works better orally): “I want peace! A piece of Ukraine, a piece of Poland, a piece of Estonia…” ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/7 "2023-09-30T22:08:10Z")
Someone should tell this guy that Russia has no business building an empire when it can’t even reach Kyiv after 19 months of fighting. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/8 "2023-09-30T22:24:37Z")
I’ve thought this for some time. But are they going to go back to the borders they had 800 years ago. I think not. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/9 "2023-09-30T22:43:08Z")
That would be when Rus’ was ruled from Kyiv, correct? ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/10 "2023-09-30T23:01:20Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Were they ever shy about this? Putin has always openly embraced _Russkiy Mir_. I’m pretty ignorant about this stuff, but it sounds like more-or-less the same thing? Russia has done a great job of managing the external narrative of “we just need to feel safe by dominating all the countries around us”, while internally progressing the narrative “it’s all ours, it was always ours, we’re going to get it back and then Western Europe will be the new buffer.” The West (collectively) could have understood all this at any time by picking up some books and reading them. Russia’s imperial aims are woven into its literary foundations. But it was more politically and economically expedient to treat the USSR/Russia just as a very powerful rival with different views on politics and economy. So we had this huge advantage given to us on a silver platter by an idiot US President who stumbled upon the only workable solution to dealing with Russia (Reagan acting like an unhinged fucking maniac ready to unleash hell), and instead of capitalizing on Russia’s demise, the next 3 Presidents squandered the advantage by triangulating around stupid strategies to bribe Russia into compliance with pallets of jeans and Coca-Cola. (Then, of course, Trump, who was Russia’s greatest victory in history). So yeah, Russia’s aims have always been out in the open. The only reason anyone’s confused and surprised is that we’ve done our utmost to pretend they were something else, something easily fixed by airdrops of jeans and DVD players. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/11 "2023-09-30T23:30:12Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > > [@Riemann](#): > > > > Putin has always openly embraced _Russkiy Mir_. > > And, of course “mir” also means “peace”. Then there was the Pax Romana, or as Tacitus put it: “They make a desert and call it peace.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2023, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/12 "2023-09-30T23:59:57Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > But it was more politically and economically expedient to treat the USSR/Russia just as a very powerful rival with different views on politics and economy. Most of the US foreign policy punditocracy has been all over this from the demise of the Soviet Union. And some large fraction of DoS as well. America has always placed economic (read “commercial”) interests ahead of governmental ones. Whether selling guns to the Native Americans, or trying to open first Russia then China to US commerce in hopes of our government getting them on the cheap while our commerce robbed them blind, it’s a long and sordid string of gunshot wounds to our own feet. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/13 "2023-10-01T19:46:25Z")
Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/14 "2023-10-02T04:21:34Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > They are about restoring the tsar-like Russ empire. He says going back 800 years worth. That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Eight hundred years ago, Russia was [much smaller](https://timemaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/russia1215ad.jpg) than its present size. So “restoring” Russia to it 1223 borders would involve giving away the majority of Russian territory. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/15 "2023-10-02T12:38:02Z")
The European part of Russia is what matters in this _Russkiy Mir_ effort. Yes, current Russia is huge because of all the landmass in Asia. But all the money, and all the ethnically Slavic-or-similar people are all to Russia’s west today. And that is the land, industry, and populace that Putin and the other Russian nationalists both great and small wish to “reclaim” as their own nation’s birthright. Historical facts and the current populace’s wishes be damned. ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/16 "2023-10-02T18:58:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Eight hundred years ago, Russia was [much smaller](https://timemaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/russia1215ad.jpg) than its present size. So “restoring” Russia to it 1223 borders would involve giving away the majority of Russian territory. and the Mongols hordes are coming for 2041… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/17 "2023-10-02T19:08:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The European part of Russia is what matters in this _Russkiy Mir_ effort. Yes, current Russia is huge because of all the landmass in Asia. > > But all the money, and all the ethnically Slavic-or-similar people are all to Russia’s west today. And that is the land, industry, and populace that Putin and the other Russian nationalists both great and small wish to “reclaim” as their own nation’s birthright. Historical facts and the current populace’s wishes be damned. Yes but those lands to the west were not controlled by Russia eight hundred years ago. Why would Sergey Mardan cite as the ideal a period when Russia was smaller in order to justify seeking to make Russia larger? This would be like an American saying they want to expand America to the borders we had in 1776. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/18 "2023-10-02T20:16:18Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That doesn’t make a lot of sense. Eight hundred years ago, Russia was [much smaller](https://timemaps.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/russia1215ad.jpg) than its present size. So “restoring” Russia to it 1223 borders would involve giving away the majority of Russian territory. Exactly so. So I don’t think this is quite what they mean. I think they want Soviet era borders. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/19 "2023-10-02T20:58:17Z")
Russia was just one tiny republic under the Soviet Union. You are thinking of the Empire: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Russian_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/541px-Russian_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Russian_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg/541px-Russian_Empire_%28orthographic_projection%29.svg.png) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2023, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921/20 "2023-10-02T21:03:18Z")
Well, let’s hope it doesn’t strike back. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-story-on-russias-specmilop-in-ukraine/990921.md?page=2)