# Back to Future: Mayor Red = Red the Bum? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 9, 2012, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995 "2012-08-09T19:49:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/41 "2012-08-11T00:21:19Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Are you sure that you aren’t thinking of _It’s a Wonderful Life_? It’s a deliberate reference to _It’s A Wonderful Life_. I think it may even be the same street on the Paramount lot. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/42 "2012-08-11T01:54:22Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Again, this is just an assertion. You have provided no evidence, or even logic, to support it. Let me turn it around: what would it take to convince you it was an ad-lib? If Fox himself popped in to tell you personally, would you call him a liar? 🙂 Kettle, meet pot. How is your assertion any more based on logic than mine? Actually though, I’m pretty comfortable with my one Red theory. Did the movie have subtle little details that would probably be noticed only on repeated viewings? Yes, it did. The one Red fits with this pattern. Did the movie waste actions or dialogue on things that didn’t contribute to the story? No, it really didn’t. It was very tightly put together. Marty’s greeting of of Red in the two Reds theory, would violate that in a way that virtually no other line in the movie did. Is it likely that Fox would have ad-libbed “Red” or something that sounded like it for the bum’s name by coincidence? I’m confident I could demonstrate there are way more names that don’t sound like Red than there are names that do, and even more character names that might have lodged in his head that don’t sound like Red. I’m pretty sure it’s going to be you calling Fox a liar as he starts, “Zemeckis had this idea …” ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/43 "2012-08-11T02:03:08Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > Is it likely that Fox would have ad-libbed “Red” or something that sounded like it for the bum’s name by coincidence? Upthread, it was confirmed that the bum’s name was “Brett.” Doesn’t that break down your whole theory? ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/44 "2012-08-11T02:14:28Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Upthread, it was confirmed that the bum’s name was “Brett.” Doesn’t that break down your whole theory? “[Confirmed](http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Red_the_Bum)”? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/45 "2012-08-11T02:47:04Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > It’s a deliberate reference to _It’s A Wonderful Life_. I think it may even be the same street on the Paramount lot. Cool! And here I was being a smart ass. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/46 "2012-08-11T09:01:00Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > 🙂 Kettle, meet pot. How is your assertion any more based on logic than mine? I have cited facts. You have a gut feeling. There’s a difference. You’re not even actually arguing the question. You haven’t offered any reason why one of the writers would have made a false statement about the situation, or why they would have two very different looking people portray someone you claim is the same character, or even why the bum actually looks _younger_ than the mayor 30 years previously. Your position is effectively faith-based, which is why I asked what evidence it would take to convince you–a question you avoided while mischaracterizing my argument. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/47 "2012-08-11T12:02:35Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > “[Confirmed](http://backtothefuture.wikia.com/wiki/Red_the_Bum)”? Hey, someone said they watched the scene and heard Fox say “Brett,” what was I supposed to do, call him a liar? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2012, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/48 "2012-08-11T13:04:09Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > Hey, someone said they watched the scene and heard Fox say “Brett,” what was I supposed to do, call him a liar? Perhaps in an alternate time line…or editing session… ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/49 "2012-08-15T00:31:45Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I have cited facts. You have a gut feeling. There’s a difference. You’re not even actually arguing the question. You haven’t offered any reason why one of the writers would have made a false statement about the situation, or why they would have two very different looking people portray someone you claim is the same character, or even why the bum actually looks _younger_ than the mayor 30 years previously. > > Your position is effectively faith-based, which is why I asked what evidence it would take to convince you–a question you avoided while mischaracterizing my argument. Yes, that’s true. I was overly glib there. Your cited facts do show that making the bum and the mayor the same person was not written into the screenplay, and probably not even conceived when they shot the campaign poster using some guy from the production crew. I didn’t know that before I saw your original cite. However, the question I’m considering is: why was Marty saying hello to the bum added to the scene, when it didn’t exist in the script? Your “two Reds” theory requires three separate leaps of faith: 1. Somehow it was felt that adding a line there added some _je ne sais quoi_ to the scene that justified the change to the script. 2. Fox ad-libbed the name of the mayor for the bum by an odd coincidence. 3. By an another odd coincidence, that ad-lib could be interpreted, and in fact, has been interpreted by many people, as a wink-at-the-audience type joke that fits with the tone of other subtle jokes made by the movie. My one Red theory relies on a couple of leaps of faith also: 1. When they added this joke, they didn’t tell one of the original screenwriters about it, or he’s forgotten if they did. 2. They decided it wasn’t worth going back and re-shooting the scene with the campaign picture, or recasting the bum for a small joke that probably most people wouldn’t even pick up on. So maybe it was an intentional joke, or maybe just a really lucky accident. There’s not really good evidence either way. I’m sticking with my theory, though, as the more plausible. Oh, and I didn’t mean to ignore your comment. Yes, of course, I would change my mind if Fox stopped by the board and told us I was wrong. I thought that was meant to be a rhetorical question! ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2012, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/50 "2012-08-15T03:12:25Z")
> [@Greg\_Charles](#): > > 1. Somehow it was felt that adding a line there added some _je ne sais quoi_ to the scene that justified the change to the script. That’s what ad-libs _are_. Do you accept that ad-libs exist? The scene as written had Marty sitting in the car, listening to the radio. When they started shooting it, someone realized that that would be awfully dull, and probably out of character for Marty, who is a highly active character. The director probably asked Fox to improvise something better suited to the character, so he did. He may have tried a dozen things before hitting on the one that made the final cut. > [@](#): > > 1. Fox ad-libbed the name of the mayor for the bum by an odd coincidence. It’s a nickname. A pretty common one–though I think it’s less so now than it used to be–and conveniently monosyllabic. There’s nothing odd about it. I’ve ad-libbed dozens of names (including calling someone “Red”–go figure), and I’m not even a professional actor. For someone who’s good at ad-libbing, names, lines, and even whole backstories just pop out. > [@](#): > > 1. By an another odd coincidence, that ad-lib could be interpreted, and in fact, has been interpreted by many people, as a wink-at-the-audience type joke that fits with the tone of other subtle jokes made by the movie. If so, it was poorly executed in a movie that relies on good execution to make its subtle jokes work. If they were going to do it on purpose, how hard would it have been to get someone more appropriate to play the bum, or to age him up a bit with makeup? For that matter, they likely had versions of the earlier shot where the poster wasn’t visible; all they really need for that joke was the voice part. > [@](#): > > Oh, and I didn’t mean to ignore your comment. Yes, of course, I would change my mind if Fox stopped by the board and told us I was wrong. I thought that was meant to be a rhetorical question! The part about calling Fox a liar was a jab–sorry, I was getting frustrated–but the question itself was sincere. People arguing from a faith-based perspective don’t accept evidence, instead relying on unfalsifiable “feelings”. My impression is that that’s what you’re doing, and I was curious as whether or not you’d actually be willing to specify any piece of evidence that would convince you. What you call a “leap of faith” on my part is _believing the available evidence_. Your leap is actively _disbelieving_ evidence, with no evidence to the contrary. You’ll forgive me if I insist on drawing a distinction. ---
**Author:** ![Greg\_Charles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@Greg\_Charles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Greg_Charles)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/51 "2012-08-17T21:03:36Z")
We may have to agree to disagree. I find your position to be, while not impossible, at least fairly illogical. I don’t disbelieve any of your evidence, and I somewhat resent that accusation. (Only somewhat since this is a completely trivial issue!) However, it only shows that line wasn’t written into the script. It doesn’t show _why_ it was added. Do you think that it does? I still think greeting the bum as Red was probably intentional, but you must agree that it was possibly intentional, right? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/52 "2012-08-17T21:52:39Z")
You are once again omitting evidence–namely testimony from one of the scriptwriters that it was, in fact, an ad-lib. Was the choice of name intentional in the sense that Fox meant to say it, rather than call the bum “Arnold” or “Roy” or something? Sure. Was it intended as a joke? That does not seem to me to be a supportable position. So, no, I don’t have to agree. You’re free to believe what you want, of course. If you can live with the terrible burden of knowing that someone on the internet knows that you’re wrong, that is. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Chef\_Troy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Chef\_Troy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chef_Troy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/53 "2012-08-18T15:25:56Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Did you happen to check it with captions on? That would be the most official interpretation, I would think. I’ve always been a little iffy on it. I think I hear the “B” sound, but it also sounds like it ends with a “d”; in other worlds, it sounds a bit like he’s saying “bread”, but that doesn’t make sense in context. Of course, he’s playing a guy who has just had a close encounter with a lightning bolt, traveled through time, then smashed into a building, all in the course of a few (subjective) seconds. Garbled or downright incoherent speech would not be unrealistic. I didn’t bring it up because people obviously interpret it differently, and it wasn’t necessary to support my point. Well, crap. I went and popped it in, and watched the scene again with the captions on. The captions say “Red.” We may have to chalk this up to Fox’s somewhat mush-mouthed diction (early Parkinson’s?) On the other hand, closed captions shouldn’t be regarded as the last word, either. They’re created by ONE PERSON who listens to the movie and transcribes it, and they’re subject to both paraphrasing for length and human error. I remember watching _The Lion King_ with the captions on, and there’s a scene where Timon the Meerkat is enjoying a bug and says “mmm… piquant, with a very pleasant crunch.” The person who created the captions had apparently never heard of the word “piquant” (“spicy, sharp-flavored”), and rendered the line instead as “_ **pecans** _, with a very pleasant crunch.” So, you know, captions =/= ultimate authority. I then went back to the scene in 1955 that includes Red the Mayor’s campaign vehicle. The picture of Red the Mayor isn’t UNQUESTIONABLY the same man as Red the Bum, but they look enough alike that 30 years and vastly changed circumstances could account for the differences. I will point out that even in 1955, Red the Mayor appeared to be in his fifties, which means that by 1985 he would be in his eighties, and Red the Bum sure doesn’t look that old to me. I also checked the cast list in the closing credits, which list the character only as “bum.” No help there. ---
**Author:** ![furlyburly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@furlyburly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlyburly)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/54 "2012-08-29T18:54:52Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > Does anyone have a clip where Marty says his line? I can’t even place it. [http://youtu.be/qk-dLkb1PqE](http://youtu.be/qk-dLkb1PqE) ---
**Author:** ![furlyburly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/82dd89/32.png) [@furlyburly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furlyburly)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/55 "2012-08-29T21:12:56Z")
> [@Justin\_Bailey](#): > > If he actually said “Red” that is. I always thought he called the bum “Fred.” Actually, the subtitles on the 25th Anniversary Bluray edition says “Alright! Fred!” But no need for any external information because the movie (and Marty) speak for themselves and I hear something totally different than “Fred” or “Red”, so check this out, it’s both scenes with the bum from BTTF1 and BTTF2 in super slow motion. Marty says two entirely different names (from each other) in each scene BTW and neither of them sound like “Red” or “Fred” to me either… [http://youtu.be/qk-dLkb1PqE](http://youtu.be/qk-dLkb1PqE) Are you back already? So what do you hear now? Did you notice that Marty has something in the left (our right) side of his mouth dropping down in BTTF2 during the end of the name? Maybe it interfered with his pronunciation, like maybe he was trying desperately to hold his gum in while he said the name without accidentally spitting it out (or it could be just a lower silver cap, filling, crown or something slipping back into place). ---
**Author:** ![Newt502](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Newt502](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Newt502)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/56 "2015-04-12T20:06:21Z")
Can someone explain why there is a clock in Docs house at the beginning of part 1 that has Doc hanging from one of the hands like he does at the end of the movie? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/57 "2015-04-12T20:24:42Z")
> [@Newt502](#): > > Can someone explain why there is a clock in Docs house at the beginning of part 1 that has Doc hanging from one of the hands like he does at the end of the movie? [HERE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3isQI0nXQRE) is the scene you’re talking about. The clock comes on at about 57 seconds. It’s not the Doc. It’s [Harold Lloyd](http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT6rTCy5BriqRUmXiPn2Xp8pEiJN7EiHqr1L4rVoxa8iZlGqdJuk3z7RYVD). ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/58 "2015-04-12T22:26:49Z")
> [@Newt502](#): > > Can someone explain why there is a clock in Docs house at the beginning of part 1 that has Doc hanging from one of the hands like he does at the end of the movie? As pointed out, it is Harold Lloyd, but it is also just one of those little cute things they put in for repeat viewings. Doc has that clock and ends up doing that exact thing…uh, in the past. I guess he has already done it? In one timeline, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/59 "2015-04-16T15:49:59Z")
But if you look at the video and the picture they are different. Different clock, the men are wearing different cloths, the guy in the video is wearing a hat that Doc wears in the past. I get that it’s just an easter egg for repeat viewings but it is still not Harold Lloyd in the video pic. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995/60 "2015-04-16T18:01:45Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > But if you look at the video and the picture they are different. Different clock, the men are wearing different cloths, the guy in the video is wearing a hat that Doc wears in the past. If you look closely at the scene in BttF, you will see that the “clock” is actually a photo of a clock. (I believe this is confirmed in one of the commentaries.) The dangling figure is wearing a boater hat. There are some more pictures of one of these clocks [here](https://grammartales.wordpress.com/tag/harold-lloyd/), including closeups that make the type of hat more obvious. They also give a clearer view of the hand/hand link and show several different times, supporting the idea that these are different pictures of a real clock. Doc Brown does not–as best I recall–wear a boater hat at any point in the movies, and he does not wear a hat at all in the clock tower scene. Harold Lloyd, on the other hand, does wear a boater hat in his iconic clock scene. The picture in BttF, therefore, is of an actual Harold Lloyd clock. I’ve always appreciated the double nod to the original scene and to the actors’ names. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-future-mayor-red-red-the-bum/630995.md?page=4)