# Back to the Future 3: Making Gasoline **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 3, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839 "2015-09-03T18:48:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/81 "2015-09-07T03:22:09Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You’re solving the wrong problem. > > If, for the sake of argument, the universe needs Marty to get his parents to fall in love and marry such that he’ll be born and grow up to go back in time and get his parents to fall in love – well, then, okay: that _happened_; the photo’s _restored_. > > The uhiverse doesn’t then need to give a crap as to whether Marty ever gets back to the future; he can die in a fiery car crash later that evening in 1955, he can live for decades before keeling over in the late 1970s or early 1980s – it doesn’t _matter,_ because George and Lorraine still got together and had a kid who went back in time and didn’t stop 'em from getting together and having said kid. > > So if, as far as they know, Marty disappeared in 1985 and was never seen or heard from again – well, look, that’s a personal tragedy of the happens-all-the-time variety, but it’s not the sort of thing that makes the universe sit up and take notice. Wait wait wait. But going back in time and screwing up how your parents met guarantees your being wiped from existence. If he never existed, who pushed Goerge out of the way of Loraine’s father’s car? I like Habeed’s sort of quantum interpretation. I picture that Marty is flickering in and out of existence so fast the entire time afterward, no one notices, and is still able to affect the course of the future. He’s in a superstate of existance until the paradox is resolved one way or the other. The other notion by Habeed is the “Best World” scenario, where given an infinite alternate universes, the universe and timeline we see in the movie is the one where he succeeds and comes out the best. Although, I like to think that the universe of BTTF doesn’t create actual alternate universes, just rewrites over the one you’re in, and only the one. Multiple timelines, yes, multiple universes no. But that’s just the notion that satisfies me. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/82 "2015-09-07T04:20:32Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > From what I remember, they [del]needed[/del] wanted clear aluminum because of the strength/weight/pressure ratio on board the Enterprise to carry a humpback whale. Normal aluminum wouldn’t allow them to see it so they could have a marine zoo aboard. Enterprise? Don’t you think you should rephrase that, Laddie? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/83 "2015-09-07T05:38:04Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Enterprise? Don’t you think you should rephrase that, Laddie? :smack: That’s right. Totally forgot about the Enterprise’s destruction in Search for Spock. Hated that movie. They used a Kilngon ship, right? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/84 "2015-09-07T06:02:22Z")
> [@SpyOne](#): > > This is precisely the kind of mucking about with the time line that Doc repeatedly warns about. > see, if they took the injector manifold off the DeLorean in the cave in 1885, then when Marty retrieved it in 1955 it would have been missing it’s manifold. Since it wasn’t missing the manifold when Marty got it, they can’t take the manifold off of it. Doing so risks a paradox that … > > I read a story once where some scientists were sending messages back in time, and they asked the guy they were sending to to put a note in a safe-deposit box so they’d know it was working. they checked the box, and the note was there. > but then the administrator for the project found out that the message asking for the note hadn’t actually been sent yet, it was just in the queue of messages to be sent. So he asked one of the scientists what would happen if he ordered that the message not be sent. > After a long discussion that included Schrodinger’s Cat and various other things, the scientist realized that it was all going over the administrator’s head, so he dumbed it down: “We want this to keep working more than we want the answer to that question.” > > Changing the condition of the DeLorean that Marty took from 1955 to 1885 retroactively sounds like a very bad idea unless you are 100% certain of the results. Agreed. But once you get the thing working again, you can travel around and put things back as necessary. Just go back and replace the manifold somewhere in 1910 or whenever. Of course, attempting to do this always causes more bad stuff to happen while you’re trying to fix the other stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/85 "2015-09-07T06:02:46Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > That’s right. Totally forgot about the Enterprise’s destruction in Search for Spock. Hated that movie. They used a Kilngon ship, right? Which was originally commanded by Commander kruge, played by…? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/86 "2015-09-07T07:08:35Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Which was originally commanded by Commander kruge, played by…? > > Stranger Dr. Emmett Brown! ---
**Author:** ![jimbuff314](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c57346/32.png) [@jimbuff314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimbuff314)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/87 "2015-09-07T08:10:54Z")
Wow. That guy’s come a long way since driving a cab. Glad he wasn’t kept institutionalized. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/88 "2015-09-07T11:36:05Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > Which was originally commanded by Commander kruge, played by…? > > Stranger I never would have remembered that Lloyd played a Klingon. And now the thread has come full circle. Or has it???.. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/89 "2015-09-07T13:26:05Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Wait wait wait. > > But going back in time and screwing up how your parents met guarantees your being wiped from existence. If he never existed, who pushed Goerge out of the way of Loraine’s father’s car? Marty did. First time around, George is a bullied loser with a dead-end job and a kid who works in a fast-food restaurant. Marty goes back in time and pushes George out of the way – and then staves off paradox by making sure George and Lorraine will fall in love and get married. And – he’s _done_. George can become a successful author with a take-no-crap attitude and a son who always wears a suit to the office, and _the universe won’t mind_ so long as George also fathers a kid named Marty who goes back in time and pushes George out of the way of a car and thus and such. At that point, there’s no paradox. Marty can drop dead right after the Enchantment Under The Sea dance – and George will still grow up to marry Lorraine and sire Marty, and Marty will still grow up to go back in time and shove his father before ensuring that marriage and that siring, and _that’s not a paradox._ Marty can leave Hill Valley and spend the next twenty-five years after that dance singing and playing guitar under an alias while banging groupies, and _that’s not a paradox either_ if George still sires Marty and Marty still visits '55. The universe doesn’t need Marty to make it back to '85, because George still marries Lorraine and fathers Marty, and Marty still visits '55 and makes sure George marries Lorraine and fathers Marty, and that’s not a paradox, and the rest is fair game. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/90 "2015-09-07T14:42:27Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > I never would have remembered that Lloyd played a Klingon. And now the thread has come full circle. > > Or has it???.. “Admiral Kirk! You don’t wanna give me the Genesis device? …_Okey doke._” > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Marty did. > > First time around, George is a bullied loser with a dead-end job and a kid who works in a fast-food restaurant. > > Marty goes back in time and pushes George out of the way – and then staves off paradox by making sure George and Lorraine will fall in love and get married. > > And – he’s _done_. George can become a successful author with a take-no-crap attitude and a son who always wears a suit to the office, and _the universe won’t mind_ so long as George also fathers a kid named Marty who goes back in time and pushes George out of the way of a car and thus and such. > > At that point, there’s no paradox. > > Marty can drop dead right after the Enchantment Under The Sea dance – and George will still grow up to marry Lorraine and sire Marty, and Marty will still grow up to go back in time and shove his father before ensuring that marriage and that siring, and _that’s not a paradox._ Marty can leave Hill Valley and spend the next twenty-five years after that dance singing and playing guitar under an alias while banging groupies, and _that’s not a paradox either_ if George still sires Marty and Marty still visits '55. > > The universe doesn’t need Marty to make it back to '85, because George still marries Lorraine and fathers Marty, and Marty still visits '55 and makes sure George marries Lorraine and fathers Marty, and that’s not a paradox, and the rest is fair game. contrast to _The Time Machine_ (the recent film.) “You built your time machine because of Emma’s death. If she had lived, it would never have existed. So how could you use your machine to go back to save her?” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/91 "2015-09-07T15:18:09Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > contrast to _The Time Machine_ (the recent film.) > > “You built your time machine because of Emma’s death. If she had lived, it would never have existed. So how could you use your machine to go back to save her?” You know, I’ve always wanted to see a movie where a wild-eyed old man in tattered clothes steps out of a time machine and implores his younger self to drop everything and rush to the local hospital this very hour to donate blood, for lo the apocalypse is nigh – and the young man _does,_ and then grows up in a world of peace and prosperity where he eventually invents a working time machine. Anyhow, he’s successful and happy – a loving husband, a proud father, a man with plenty of money in the bank after a long and fulfilling life – and _wow, has it been fifty years already? Yup, there’s the red-letter day on my calendar. Well, looks like I’d better tear at my clothes and get a crazy look in my eyes and go put on an act. “The apocalypse is nigh!” Heh. Man, was I gullible back then._ ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/92 "2015-09-07T16:28:48Z")
@Pepper: I guess I’m not seeing your point. The first time around, George fell out of the tree in the middle of the street and was hit by Loaine’s father. They take George in, and that’s when Loraine falls under the Nightingale Effect and is what brings them to the dance and marriage etc. But when Marty changed the timeline pushing his dad out of the way of the car, so events wouldn’t lead up to George and Loraine ever hooking up or having children, therefore: Paradox. But ignoring that… Even if it means Marty just ceases to exist, no one wants to die, so it’s still a fight for his (and his siblings) life. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/93 "2015-09-07T16:37:20Z")
Missed the edit window. I get that you’re saying that it eventually works out that way, but that was only because Marty had to proactively intervene to get them back together. If he didn’t know the story about how they hooked up, it would have created a true paradaox. We know there’s not alternate universes, otherwise his photograph wouldn’t change according to the probabilities he’s introducing, since it would be a picture from his universe. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/94 "2015-09-07T16:37:34Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > @Pepper: > > I guess I’m not seeing your point. > > The first time around, George fell out of the tree in the middle of the street and was hit by Loaine’s father. They take George in, and that’s when Loraine falls under the Nightingale Effect and is what brings them to the dance and marriage etc. > > But when Marty changed the timeline pushing his dad out of the way of the car, so events wouldn’t lead up to George and Loraine ever hooking up or having children, therefore: Paradox. But ignoring that… > > Even if it means Marty just ceases to exist, no one wants to die, so it’s still a fight for his (and his siblings) life. I’m saying that, after Marty gets his parents to kiss at the dance – such that paradox is averted, because they’ll have a kid named Marty who goes back in time to push George and engineer that kiss at the dance – no paradox ensues regardless of whether Marty gets back to 1985. **Habeed** said that, for paradox to be avoided, Marty has to time things just right with the post-dance lightning to go back to the future. I say that, no, once the photo of Marty (and the siblings) has been restored, paradox has been avoided; Marty can then ride the lightning or miss the lightning or decide not to try and no paradox ensues. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/95 "2015-09-07T16:55:21Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m saying that, after Marty gets his parents to kiss at the dance – such that paradox is averted, because they’ll have a kid named Marty who goes back in time to push George and engineer that kiss at the dance – no paradox ensues regardless of whether Marty gets back to 1985. > > **Habeed** said that, for paradox to be avoided, Marty has to time things just right with the post-dance lightning to go back to the future. I say that, no, once the photo of Marty (and the siblings) has been restored, paradox has been avoided; Marty can then ride the lightning or miss the lightning or decide not to try and no paradox ensues. Oh yeh, I agree with that. The paradox was averted after his parents finally kissed for the first time at the dance. Sorry, missed that from Habeed’s post. Lorraine: “Your father kissed me for the very first time on that dance floor. And…and it was then that I realized…that I was going to spend the rest of my life with him.” ---
**Author:** ![Frazzled](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frazzled/32/3368_2.png) [@Frazzled](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frazzled)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/96 "2015-09-07T17:59:44Z")
The trilogy was on TV yesterday and of course, I had to watch. I realized for the first time that we missed a pretty daring escape and action sequence. Marty and Doc certainly didn’t seem to care about making a lot of noise in the parking lot of the mall - both Twin and Lone. Add in Libyan terrorists attacking US citizens on US Soil, assault weapons, rocket launchers, attempted murder, stolen weapons grade plutonium intended to be used to build a weapon of mass destruction, and throw in a major car accident complete with dead terrorists,burning, while Marty and Doc casually share a moment reminiscing about a note Marty wrote 30 years prior. How the heck did they get out of that parking lot to get home? The police response is criminally slow! But even if Marty and Doc got lucky enough to sneak out before the police started to investigate they should eventually realize just how deep the rabbit hole goes and piece Doc back into it (it helps he had a van with his name on the side parked at the scene of the crime for a period of time prior). Maybe it’s a good thing that Doc never returns to live in 1985 knowing he’s a fugitive who will likely spend the rest of his life in prison. But what about Marty? One of the only people who truly knew Doc and would be investigated by both media and police and could possibly be linked to those crimes as well! But of course, this is a world where a train can run into a car, absolutely shred it and just keep on moving with nary a second thought. When Marty and Jennifer return several hours later not so much as one emergency vehicle or cleanup crew is there investigating an extremely serious accident. But that could possibly be explained by the idea that they’re all the the massive clusterfuck of a mess in the mall parking lot from the night before and don’t have any manpower to spare on major car accidents… ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/97 "2015-09-07T18:39:37Z")
> [@Frazzled](#): > > The trilogy was on TV yesterday and of course, I had to watch. I realized for the first time that we missed a pretty daring escape and action sequence. > > Marty and Doc certainly didn’t seem to care about making a lot of noise in the parking lot of the mall - both Twin and Lone. Add in Libyan terrorists attacking US citizens on US Soil, assault weapons, rocket launchers, attempted murder, stolen weapons grade plutonium intended to be used to build a weapon of mass destruction, and throw in a major car accident complete with dead terrorists,burning, while Marty and Doc casually share a moment reminiscing about a note Marty wrote 30 years prior. How the heck did they get out of that parking lot to get home? The police response is criminally slow! But even if Marty and Doc got lucky enough to sneak out before the police started to investigate they should eventually realize just how deep the rabbit hole goes and piece Doc back into it (it helps he had a van with his name on the side parked at the scene of the crime for a period of time prior). Maybe it’s a good thing that Doc never returns to live in 1985 knowing he’s a fugitive who will likely spend the rest of his life in prison. But what about Marty? One of the only people who truly knew Doc and would be investigated by both media and police and could possibly be linked to those crimes as well! But of course, this is a world where a train can run into a car, absolutely shred it and just keep on moving with nary a second thought. When Marty and Jennifer return several hours later not so much as one emergency vehicle or cleanup crew is there investigating an extremely serious accident. But that could possibly be explained by the idea that they’re all the the massive clusterfuck of a mess in the mall parking lot from the night before and don’t have any manpower to spare on major car accidents… Good points. But let’s look at what happened as those moments unfold. They were in the fairly isolated parking lot of JC Penny during 1:16 and ~1:35 am. So, about 20 minutes all told, but only 10 minutes of noisy shit. Also, they didn’t seem to be around a residential zone, and I’m assuming mall security wasn’t much of a thing in 1985, or this particular mall never hired any for the outside lot. Anyhow, the DeLorean makes 3 loud bangs as it enters and exits the timestream. So, six loud booms for Einstein to make his trip at 1:20 am, then the Libyans arrive around 1:32 am, there’s about 2+ minutes of intermittent AK-47 fire as soon as they arrive, until they finally crash into the FotoFox booth, upon which 3 more timestream booms as Marty goes to 1955. The Libyans never get a chance to fire the rocket propelled grenade. So, depending on how far those noises travelled and who was around, they could’ve tossed the plutonium and other gear into the Doc’s van and high-tailed it before the police arrived—though I’ll admit it’s bordering on implausible, but not impossible. We don’t know if the two Libyans were killed or not, but perhaps they missed the cops arriving by a mere minute. What would they and the FBI have to go on, at that point, if there were no other eye-witnesses? Let’s say they couldn’t get any intel out of the Libyans do to death or holding up to interrogation (or they managed to get away), how could they track back anything to the Doc, assuming they were that good at leaving no evidence at the scene. Anyhow, as you mention, the Doc never returns to 1985 to live. After the events at Lone Pine Mall, they must’ve driven directly to Marty’s DeLorean at the Clock Tower, got it started up, torched the van (it’s what I would’ve done), drop Marty off at his house, then he was immediately off to 2015… long gone. Yet, Red was probably still there. But his tale would sound ridiculous to the FBI, especially coming from the town drunk. It would take a while for the FBI to piece it all together, maybe the inside of a week, but what evidence they could find against Marty might be very thin/circumstantial. Although… Although, perhaps they had instruments back then that could pick up on some faint plutonium isotopes coming off of Marty later that week? ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/98 "2015-09-07T18:46:53Z")
I admit no cops or rescue personnel around for the destruction at Eastwood Ravine is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/99 "2015-09-07T22:21:42Z")
Since this has moved from the question in the OP to a general discussion of the movie, let’s move this to Cafe Society. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839/100 "2015-09-07T23:00:21Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Since this has moved from the question in the OP to a general discussion of the movie, let’s move this to Cafe Society. > > Colibri > General Questions Moderator I figured it was only a matter of… time. forgive me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/back-to-the-future-3-making-gasoline/729839.md?page=6)