Back To The Future fans, gather round and let us revel in brilliance!

“Besides, the stainless steel construction made the flux dispersal–look out!”

Which is, as Achernar said, perfectly correct. Believe me, I’ve looked at enough DeLoreans to know…although some foolish people defaced the cars by painting them. Barbarians. The bodies were tough, highly corrosion-resistant, and minor damage and discoloration could be buffed out easily. I wish they were still making cars like that.

As for things I would have done differently if I were in Doc Brown’s place (BTW, I was my best friend’s “Mad Scientist” friend):

  1. The coil of slack cable on the DeLorean would definitely be included. That allows Marty to hit the cable early, which eases the timing considerably. This hit me the first time I saw the movie, which proves that I’m an engineer by nature and not a pure scientist. (Good call, Bob.) The hook would also extend as far in front of the car as possible on a pivoting mounting; that’s the best I’ve come up with for adding a margin for hitting the wire late.

  2. I would have used a longer cable for the link from the tower to the street. It looked like Doc did the trig to determine the exact distance between the connection points, then didn’t allow any margin.

  3. The tower-to-street cable would have been tied off to something on the tower, even if I had to drive a spike into the face of the building.

  4. There would have been some kind of strain-relief between the connector at street-level and the main part of the cable.

  5. I would have had a rope or, preferably, a rope ladder hanging from the tower. Even if the cable installation went without a hitch, I’d want some quick route down–no way would I want to up there when the lightning hit.

Those are things I would have done. Doc Brown doesn’t work that way. He doesn’t seem to actually plan things; he goes directly from inspiration to action. Yes, he creates the all the little models and does all the calculations, but those are just to give shape to something that appeared in a flash in his mind. He doesn’t make changes along the way–the Mark I is the finished product.

I do that sometimes, and I love it…but it’s not a safe approach to anything important.

Balance, there are some potential problems with your, how shall we call it? Super Spring Theory?

At the end of BTTF2, Doc goes back in time to 1885. Immediately after the lightening strike, the delivery car pulls up with a package for Marty. The effect there was instantaneous despite there being a 70 year lag. This wasn’t a reversion of prior events. Doc changed time by giving the delivery service the package. Even if we were to assume the effect to be instantaneous once it caught up with Doc Brown’s lifetime, that would still be, what? 40 years?
Comparing that to the 30 year difference between 1985 and 1955, we see it should have taken well over a week for those changes to come to Marty in 1955 at the end of BTTF2.
The only explanation would be that time did go on as normal for as long as it took for the changes to sweep through 1955, which retroactively changed what happened during that time period. But there’s no evidence presented to indicate that this is what happened.

Tricky question, Ender. I like it.

One possible answer involves different reference frames. Every time you travel through time, your enter a new frame, and the propagation delay is only evident from within the frame of the traveller who made the change, which is shared by everyone and everything he brought with him. That leaves Doc in a history-altering frame, while Marty remains in his initial frame. When Doc sends his letter (the primary change), he causes a ripple that propagates down the timestream and causes the letter to be delivered to Marty. If he had a picture of Marty standing on the road a few minutes downstream from his own abrupt departure, he would have seen the delivery guy and the letter slowly fade into view at some point long after he sent the letter; in fact, given his life expectancy at the time, he probably wouldn’t have seen the photo change at all. For Marty, locked into his 1955 frame, the change would be effectively instantaneous. That letter had been waiting for him for 70 years. This gets really sticky, though, when you consider that Old Biff’s alteration to the past didn’t seem to affect Doc, Marty, and Jennifer immediately in 2015. I don’t have a glib answer for that (yet–one may yet come to me). There must be some element of this at work to explain the unaltered memories of the travellers, though. Perhaps there are only two frames, traveller and non-traveller, and things in the travelling frame are only affected by changes that would prevent them from entering the travelling frame entirely (such as not being born).

I think a better answer is the one I alluded to in my summation above: propagation rates differ between primary and secondary (and presumably tertiary) changes. As a refinement of my earlier handwaving, say that the propagation rate of the changewave is a function of the number and degree of the changes it causes. That would explain why secondary changes (those triggered by the primary wave) seem to propagate faster; they necessarily have lesser effects than the primary. Each wave initially has a very rapid propagation, and it slows down as it causes changes. The greater the impact of the secondary change, the more it slows the primary. This would explain the dramatic slowing of the wave Marty caused by preventing his parents’ from meeting. It caused minor secondary effects quickly (Lorraine not going to the dance with George, no wedding, and so forth), which slowed it to an average rate of 1 year/hour by the time it reached David’s birth, 7 years downstream. The two major secondaries (the births of David and Linda, which would also cause tertiary effects as they were erased) and many minor secondaries slowed the primary wave dramatically before it reached Marty’s birth 14 years downstream. The drag bought him time to fix things.

Now, consider Doc’s letter. What secondary changes did it cause? It moved a tiny amount of money into Western Union’s coffers, then sat in a vault for 70 years. For the sake of convenience, let’s assume that over that period, the cumulative effects of that changed bank balance and any other minor impacts are roughly equivalent to all the secondary changes caused by Marty’s primary change up to the time of David’s birth (roughly 7 years downstream). That gives us an average propagation rate of about 1 year/hour across seventy years for Doc’s letter. Doc would have seen a photo begin to change in about 3 days, if he had had one. The secondary change would have been the Western Union guy setting out to deliver the letter, with the actual delivery as a tertiary effect. The secondary change would propagate quickly, slowed only by minor effects like the guy’s influence on traffic…on a quiet road late on a Saturday night. Most of the effects would be off-screen (since we weren’t watching a movie about a Western Union delivery guy). The first sign of the tertiary change that would have been noticeable from Marty’s perspective is the the guy’s headlights in the fog. Even if we assume that the secondary wave propagated at roughly the same rate as the primary, 1 year/hour still equates to about 2.4 hours/second. That means that if the Western Union office was less than two hours away, the change would take place in under a second. Say, during the time when the headlights were fading into view. We may have seen the change happening, but misinterpreted it as the headlights advancing through a thick patch of fog, rather than fading into existence. If the guy had been running late, he would have suddenly appeared out of nowhere in front of (an undoubtably startled) Marty.

I’m enjoying this far too much. I am such a geek.

I would just like to say at this point, that I love you people.

THIS is why the Internet was CREAAAAAAAAAAAATEDDDD !!!

-frothing at mouth, etc-

:smiley:

You mean, so that geeks could talk to other geeks about things that mostly matter only to geeks?

Yep. Sounds about right. :smiley:

I read in an interview with him (not sure how reliable it is of course) that they were offering him significantly less money than all the other leads, so he asked for more.

I believe the DVD commentary says that he overrated his value to the franchise – he wanted to be paid at a rate comparable to Fox and Lloyd, even though he was still relatively unknown/low-key at the time. Even his agent said the request was outrageous, but Glover insisted – and the rest is history.

Your answer had me smiling enough that I shall just accept it all as fact and assume that, if time travel is possible, it works exactly as you have outlined in countless mathematical formulas above.

The series is just brilliant…it lays out all these great continuity tidbits for the diehard fans…like my personal fave from the third film:

**Doc: So…it may not be my name that’s supposed to end up on that tombstone. It may be yours.

*Marty puts his hand to his forehead. *

Marty: Great Scott!

Doc: I know, this is heavy. **

Just brilliant writing!

Back to the lightning strike for a moment- are there any electrical engineers in the crowd that can shed some light on transmitting 1.21 GW of electricity? What size cable would be required? I suspect it would be larger than that found in high wire transmission lines, and certainly larger than what Doc would be able to afford. And if you could deliver that large a jolt to the car, what kind of circuitry could possibly handle it?

And yes, this is why Al Gore invented the internet.

RickJay, it did win a Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation.

Which, of course, blows an Oscar right out of the water.

Check out this page. The guy has done some pretty good analysis, although he feels there are mistakes which can’t be resolved. He hates the picture thing. He assumes that only one timeline can exist at a time. I think we’ve trumped him here with explaining the possible fixes for the series, but it’s a fun read anyway. He deals with all of the films as well as some others like Terminator. He really rips some of them apart, and one point he makes that I totally agree with is that there is no way to travel into the past without changing it. The minute you arrive you change the trajectory of molecules, atoms, quantum particles, and all of this will result in a cascading “butterfly effect”. Anyway, Check out this list of flicks he examines:

Geek quota for the day met and passed! By the way to make the idea of “Temporal Signature” a little more plain (since I feel this is the only theory that really can explain all of the problems), consider this software metaphor: If I create a file on MS-Word 97, and try to load it onto a prior version (let’s say '95) the program won’t recognize it. Or it may recognize most of it, but I might lose some formatting - namely anything using features not yet added until the '97 version. If I try to open the file in excel, I get nothing - it won’t load. So, the timelines are like the software and Marty is like a file. If the file format is different, then it may not load at all on that platform (timeline), or it may load with some loss of data/formatting - like a picture or Marty’s hand.

Or maybe they are in the Matrix. . .

DaLovin’ Dj

You couldn’t handle the full current with any cable Doc could provide. Peak current in a lightning strike is typically in the 10s of kiloamps. While you could theoretically make a conductor that would handle that (I don’t know offhand if anyone has done it), the result would not be a cable that you could drag up a tower to hook onto a lightning rod. Fortunately, it wasn’t necessary for the cable to carry all the current; all it had to do was act as a guide. The cable provided a low-resistance path for the initial current, guiding it toward the car. That current vaporized the conductor in the cable (blowing open the cable and igniting it) and ionized the air around it; the resulting combination of copper vapor and ionized air remained a low-resistance path, so the rest of the strike followed it. That’s why we saw the lightning strike along the outside of the cable–if the cable had actually carried the current, there would have been no light show.

Now, not all of that juice would have gone into the time circuits. In fact, most of it had to have been dissipated by the flux around the car and sunk through the anchor points for the cable, or it would have caused a lot of damage–recall what happened with the direct lightning strike at the end of BttFII. The average peak power of a stroke of lightning is about 1000 gigawatts. Given a typical current of about 30 kiloamps, that implies a voltage drop of about 33.3 megavolts. I’m going to assume that the flux capacitor requires extreme voltage rather than extreme current, as its size is not consistent with a device designed to withstand enormous current, and given that the nature of the visible flux effects (the arcs over the skin of the car as the system is activated) are consistent with high voltage. So, plugging 33.3 MV and 1.21 GW into the power equation P=IV, we get I (the current)=36 amps. Your house wiring can handle that much current; you’d just have to insulate it well enough to keep the high voltage from causing it to arc out to nearby objects. Assuming Doc didn’t come up with a fantastic new insulator, I would imagine that the bulk of the time-travel apparatus is devoted to insulating the line into flux capacitor.

Bear in mind that, while I’m an EE, I’m not a power guy. I don’t really know too much about high-voltage, high-current stuff, so take the above with a small grain of salt.

dalovindj, I agree that with the nature of time travel in the BttF trilogy, you can’t go back without changing things. However, another take on time travel that appeals to me is the one in which you can’t change history at all–you can only make it happen exactly the way it did. In other words, the traveller is already a product of the tampered timeline. The fun thing about this is that you get to play around behind the scenes and fiddle with the implications of things. You can tamper with the causes of things all you like, as long as the effects of your tampering don’t change anything in a way that would have been noticeable by the time of your departure. So if you go back in time to try to save a friend who has been missing for a week and is presumed dead, you can save him–but you will do it in such a way that he will remain missing for at least a week. You must, because you already did. This approach also neatly avoids paradoxes. You will fail in your attempt to kill your own grandfather, because he obviously lived to sire one of your parents. (You could wound him, though…and suddenly realize where that scar you always wondered about came from.)

I just finished his review of the all three films and I have to conclude that the ONLY way for the series to work is in a Multiverse containing either infinite or “a very great but finite” number of timelines that they travel into sideways, like in the TV show “Sliders”. The disappearing/fading effect seen in the picture, on the newspaper, and on Marty’s hand all result from a timeline platform compatability issue which becomes more and more of a problem (ultimately fatal) the further sideways they get from their native timeline. The only remaining questions are:

**Do all of the other timelines continue to exist? **
If so, then the sucky 1985 does and always will exist. Worlds much better and much worse exist and there is nothing anyone can do about it. If all the timelines all exist at all times, then the temporal signature theory is the only explanation for the fading effect. . .

Or are they destroyed when a time machine is activated?
If there can only be one timeline, then that Delorian is the most deadly Weapon of Mass Destruction ever created - wiping out whole Universes with every use . . .

**Can just SOME of the timelines (a limited number) exist? **
If the answer is more than one, but just SOME, then the fading effect could be a result of the time traveler’s native timeline being drained of all the energy that created them (and therefore un-creating them).

On preview:
Balance, I also like the idea that time occured only as it did, and any time travel will only reveal to you that you were already a part of exactly what happened. I don’t think such a theory is anything close to what is going on in these films, but it reminds me of “12 Monkeys” alot.

DaLovin’ Dj

Of course, there is also the “Divine Intervention” possibility, in which case, some sort of god (in this case Robert
Zemeckis) is controlling all of this stuff and internal logic need not apply because the god is omnipotent. I find this as unsatisfying as “for dramatic effect”, but the addition of fate, gods, and free will to any theory could easily make the whole thing alot trickier.

DaLovin’ Dj

I am eternally proud to say that I was at Worldcon that year and I voted for BTTF.

<hijack>This notion also appears in The Doomsday Book.</hijack>

Balance, you’re absolutely right about the problems with my Probability Theory. There’s no particular reason that George & Lorraine can only produce those three children; in fact, conception being the zillion-to-one shot that it is, the opposite should be true. Ehhh, poo.
Another thing I want to know: in BTTF3, after the gas line gets pierced but before the fuel injection manifold gets blown out, why didn’t Doc borrow some gas from the other time machine (the one he buried in the mine shaft at some point before Sept. 1 1885, because we don’t see it at all)? Even if there wasn’t a full tank, Doc could have augmented it with some distilled ethanol or something.

Finally, to add to the scurrilous rumors, I heard that Crispin Glover wanted things like script approval, which even the leads didn’t get.

I figured that Doc drained the tank before stashing it. It’s not a good idea to leave gas in the tank of an unused car, even if there’s little or no chance of it igniting (which there wouldn’t be in this case). It breaks down into nasty gunk that you have to clean out of the tank before you refill it. It’s even possible that the gas would have been unusable by the time Marty got there. Doc had been there for eight months, and gasoline can deteriorate enough in one month to impair performance if you don’t add a fuel stabilizer.

Alternatively, maybe there wasn’t enough time to dig the car out, siphon it, and bury it again before the deadline. It had to be left there, or Marty couldn’t have come back in the first place.

Sorry about the bump, folks, but something peculiar happened. My last post appeared here, but it didn’t update the listing in the forum–it still showed Nightsky’s last post as the final post in the thread. Let’s see if this updates it.

As an aside from all the complicated stuff, isn’t Elijah Wood so small and diddy in BTTF 2?