# Backseat Hitmen (Off limits to living Mafia players) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 27, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683 "2007-03-27T14:43:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 23
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/441 "2007-05-11T16:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] I never got the impression that he got a power role read. I’m not even gonna try and figure out that hint. [/QUOTE] That’s my fault. I told **pima** not to give any indication at all if he investigated a power role. It never occurred to me that that would mean if **pima** reported Town, than the investigation could easily have come back “pro-Town” instead. In retrospect, the only two situations in which a beat cop is useful is for verifying role claims and early in the game when you can investigate somebody twice and see if the same thing comes back twice. Putting any weight to a coin-flip is, in retrospect, stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/442 "2007-05-11T16:13:39Z")
That was so scummy how **Lakai** switched his vote late at night near the end. My final list of suspcion: **Pygmy Rugger** **Lakai** **Queuing** **brewha** **Kat** **Fretful Porpentine** **StarvingButStrong** **Storyteller0910** is looking better and better. Im guessing the last two scum are **Lakai** and **Queuing**. I wonder if the town will be able to pull it off. Edit: grammar fix. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/443 "2007-05-11T16:23:19Z")
I see the reasoning in case Lakai came back something like Doctor and he really were the Doc, you wouldn’t want the mafia to know that. But the odd that he really were the doc has to be less than the odds that he really were a vanilla town. Pleonast, that’s where my suspicions were when I got lynched. I’m curious to see who the mafia take out tonight. Tomorrow is gonna be fun! ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/444 "2007-05-11T16:27:01Z")
heh. **brewha** just can’t catch a break, even when dead and vindicated as town. 😉 Fine-tuning of The Slut, etc… Are there any precedents for roles that are only active during the first “x” days of the game, or until “y” deaths have occurred? The sweet spot for the role idea I have will depend on how many people are playing. How about if The Slut can have his/her choice of the nightly target of seduction, but those targets still remain “unaware” of his/her attentions. _Any_ player who has ever been selected by the Slut, if they try and role-read The Slut, will get a “vanilla town” read until the end of the game. However, The Slut can only operate as such at the beginning of the game. I think the fairest way to limit the role would be by the number of dead players. Conversely, the Jealous S.O. would be as described in my previous post, but will also be limited by the number of dead players in his/her nightly kill-lust. Better? ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/445 "2007-05-11T16:29:28Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] Conversely, the Jealous S.O. would be as described in my previous post, but will also be limited by the number of dead players in his/her nightly kill- **lust**. [/QUOTE] _Snigger_ ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/446 "2007-05-11T16:38:36Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] In retrospect, the only two situations in which a beat cop is useful is for verifying role claims… [/QUOTE] See - I kept _saying_ that, and you guys decided to lynch me anyways! Come on! 🙂 Well played **brewha** , you done good. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/447 "2007-05-11T16:38:44Z")
Hi Dr Nick! (I got it **brewha**!) Here is the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8476112&postcount=2829) where I tried to hint that I didn’t get a Vanilla status on Lakai. It was the part where I said “hypothetically if I get a pro- town role…” Weak, I know. I should have just said from the beginning that it was a pro-town role. A little bit upthread, Pygmy Rugger implied that it would be a hoot if Lakai really was a Beat Cop and been able to hide all this time. I’m kind of thinking from this that Lakai is not mafia. Also implied is that the Godfather is a female. A couple of dead mobsters have referred to a Godperson. Anybody else pick up on this, or am I crazy? ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/448 "2007-05-11T16:42:57Z")
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey] Also implied is that the Godfather is a female. A couple of dead mobsters have referred to a Godperson. Anybody else pick up on this, or am I crazy? [/QUOTE] Could be female, could be male…we’re not givin’ you nuttin’, see? I think all of us have been trying to be as deliberately vague as possible. A couple of times, **NAF** (in here, mind, not the game itself) referred to the SK as “he.” I stopped even thinking of the female posters once I read that. So I myself am trying not to give you anything, hence the Godperson, he/she things. I like having secrets. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/449 "2007-05-11T16:48:37Z")
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey] Hi Dr Nick! (I got it **brewha**!) [/QUOTE] Hey, I’ve got a question for you. You’re evidently a monkey who likes hockey and you’re wrong on about 50% of your hunches, although early on you got lucky and did very well. Your name wouldn’t happen to be [Maggie](http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=11007&hubname=), would it? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/450 "2007-05-11T16:53:45Z")
[QUOTE=Aguecheek] Could be female, could be male…we’re not givin’ you nuttin’, see? I think all of us have been trying to be as deliberately vague as possible. A couple of times, **NAF** (in here, mind, not the game itself) referred to the SK as “he.” I stopped even thinking of the female posters once I read that. So I myself am trying not to give you anything, hence the Godperson, he/she things. I like having secrets. 😛 [/QUOTE] Did I? Damn, and I tried so hard to not do that. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Hockey\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a183cd/32.png) [@Hockey\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hockey_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/451 "2007-05-11T17:06:52Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] Hey, I’ve got a question for you. You’re evidently a monkey who likes hockey and you’re wrong on about 50% of your hunches, although early on you got lucky and did very well. Your name wouldn’t happen to be [Maggie](http://tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=11007&hubname=), would it? [/QUOTE] How cute is that? My name is Amanda, and I’m not really a monkey, but I am wrong alot. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/452 "2007-05-11T17:10:47Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] Did I? Damn, and I tried so hard to not do that. Oh well. [/QUOTE] Yeah, you did it in the forbidden thread for the third game, too. ☹ Something to the effect of “The SK is playing very well, I think he might win it.” I felt like I was cheating for having picked that up, but I didn’t use it at all, even encouraging us to go after **Pleo** the night we got the SK. ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/453 "2007-05-11T17:14:35Z")
[QUOTE=Hockey Monkey] Hi Dr Nick! (I got it **brewha**!) Here is the [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8476112&postcount=2829) where I tried to hint that I didn’t get a Vanilla status on Lakai. It was the part where I said “hypothetically if I get a pro- town role…” Weak, I know. I should have just said from the beginning that it was a pro-town role. A little bit upthread, Pygmy Rugger implied that it would be a hoot if Lakai really was a Beat Cop and been able to hide all this time. I’m kind of thinking from this that Lakai is not mafia. Also implied is that the Godfather is a female. A couple of dead mobsters have referred to a Godperson. Anybody else pick up on this, or am I crazy? [/QUOTE] I figured since the Dope is full of Simpson’s geeks someone would get it. (Not that I’m calling you a geek.) Well, if Lakai is the other Beat Cop, I’m pretty sure the town is screwed. I can’t see how a role claim would do any good at this stage of the game unless he had some pretty good proof of the claim. ---
**Author:** ![Aguecheek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@Aguecheek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aguecheek)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/454 "2007-05-11T17:20:16Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] Did I? Damn, and I tried so hard to not do that. Oh well. [/QUOTE] Of course, now that I say that, I can’t find it anywhere, but I know I saw it at least once… No worries either way. I was convinced **Queuing** was the SK anyways, so of _course_ it had to be a he. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/455 "2007-05-11T17:29:21Z")
[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies] heh. **brewha** just can’t catch a break, even when dead and vindicated as town. 😉 Fine-tuning of The Slut, etc… Are there any precedents for roles that are only active during the first “x” days of the game, or until “y” deaths have occurred? The sweet spot for the role idea I have will depend on how many people are playing. [/QUOTE] What I’m lining up for the _Treasure Island_-themed game is a semi-competent SK who cannot win by himself, but becomes scum on achieving _n_ kills. I also have a kinda Vig with both an activation and deactivation condition, which by the law of averages would see him spring to life about the time the other guy deactivated. But neither is key to the game. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/456 "2007-05-11T17:36:31Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] What I’m lining up for the _Treasure Island_-themed game is a semi-competent SK who cannot win by himself, but becomes scum on achieving _n_ kills. I also have a kinda Vig with both an activation and deactivation condition, which by the law of averages would see him spring to life about the time the other guy deactivated. But neither is key to the game. 🆒 [/QUOTE] That sounds really cool. I am really looking forward to that game now! ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/457 "2007-05-11T18:18:11Z")
[QUOTE=NAF1138] That sounds really cool. I am really looking forward to that game now! [/QUOTE] They are pretty neat, actually. I think **Mal** will probably want your input (and others, perhaps) on how many pirates and crewmen to have. I’m thinking something along the lines of 14 crew and 6 pirates, plus the special roles. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/458 "2007-05-11T18:22:38Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m thinking something along the lines of 14 crew and 6 pirates, plus the special roles. Is that 14 crew + 6 pirates + special roles, for a total of more than 20? If not, I think 6 scum out of 20 might be a bit too many. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/459 "2007-05-11T18:36:30Z")
I was thinking that’s too many pirates out of 20 as well. I thought about four scum including the boss - some of the odds and ends roles are tending towards scum although in some cases they can’t be relied upon as part of the scum voting bloc 'cos not all of them get to see the scum board. Also that 20 or so players would be optimum. Math tends to suggest that the length of the thread varies as the square of the number of players. 🙂 **glee** ’s preference for “clear” roles won’t necessarily be indulged though. More will be revealed when we get the OK to start the game. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/460 "2007-05-11T18:38:28Z")
The first thing you want to do is make sure that as close to 1/2 of your population is vanilla as possible. The ratio I was told after this is, a doctor or similar type of character is worth 1 scum. A detective or similar is worth 2. A GF type character -1 scum (immune from detective). Add 1 scum for every 3 masons. Add 1 scum for every 6 vanilla. Vig and SK do not effect the scum count. Total scum should not exceed 1/4 of the total players. So with 20 players, if you have more then 5 (\*maybe \* 6) scum, your game is broken off the bat. This means that you can have 1 detective type, 2 role blocker types, and 2 night killer types. This is just for ratio of scum to power role to vanilla and has nothing to do with individual power balancing. But it should give you a start. The other advice I was given is think of the worst things that could happen in terms of pro town and pro scum gameplay. If you can still have the game going after day 5, your game is as balanced as you could hope for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683.md?page=22) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683.md?page=24)