# Backseat Hitmen (Off limits to living Mafia players) **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [March 27, 2007, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683 "2007-03-27T14:43:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/481 "2007-05-12T14:09:39Z")
Thanks for the feedback! **Chronos** , I was wavering about the Occultist anyway (and hadn’t included it my final role-list anyway), and you’re analysis is right. I’ll remove it until it is more balanced. [QUOTE=Mtgman] There’s a hole in your “no lynch” idea. You say “the person with the most votes” gets it so everyone must either not vote or unvote and one scum, or anyone really, sneaking a vote in just under the deadline can off someone, basically becoming a lynch mob of one. I don’t think this adds much fun to the game as it becomes pretty random and takes a lot of bookkeeping to pull off a no lynch. [/quote] Ah, my lack of clarity. The “no lynch” would still hold the most votes and so no lynch would occur. > [@](#): > > Explain or somehow document why the roles are not revealed at time of death. What do you expect this to add to gameplay? I have a little color text about the slow bureaucracy. 🙂 Game reason why: it hampers the global information (balancing against power roles), plus allows an additional role (the Coroner). > [@](#): > > You’ve really crippled the masons here. Was that your intent? If you’re going to handicap them you might want to add an alternate victory path here for them so they can build their super-secret society by doing their secret handshakes and once they are aware of each other, allow them to join a masons forum(a lodge if you will). The Freemasons are the equivalent of Vanilla Townies. No special powers, except they can try to find each other. They win or lose with the Town, of course. They are also useful for finding the Omega wolf. Interesting idea about building a lodge. > [@](#): > > I can break your game right away with the witches. On day 1 they all claim and validate each other. Then they say they’re going to protect witch #2 that night. Then the guardian angel(s) and witch doctor protect the other two witches. Then all three witches are protected and they can investigate each night and lead any anti-town lynch bandwagons during the day. The only role capable of penetrating their protection is the vig and he’s pro-town, so he wouldn’t. The scum’s only hope is to off the witch doctor and/or guardian angels, but with the witches free to work in the open they can have the seer, occultist, and detective work with them to identify scum pretty quickly. Ah, good point. I’ll actually take that as the Guardian Angel being too powerful. Without them, the safety of the Witches can’t be guaranteed. And the Witchdoctor can only resurrect a given player once. The Witches can’t afford to sacrifice themselves, since it risks the Cabal winning. So, I think the Witches are ok without the Angels in play. > [@](#): > > The detective seems extremely powerful. Given that he’s a pro-town role and only scum, or the vigilante, will be doing night kills, he basically learns the name of scum each night. He could lay low for three to four days and then break the game by posting everything he knows. The occultist or warlock’s retribution spell may show up on his radar, but for the most part he’s going to finger scum each night without ever missing. Also, when does he get his info? It says “each day” he can find the killer of one victim from the previous night, so does he get it at the end of the day, or at the beginning? Basically can he lead a revenge mob immediately, or does he have to wait? The Detective will get his info during the day, after he PMs his request (which death to investigate) to the moderator. Yes, he is the most powerful Town role. And he is balanced by the number of scum. Basic Wolf strategy: choose one “fall guy” wolf (maybe even the Alpha, since he’s replaceable) to kill each night. The Detective will soon find him (and the Vampire). But as long as that Wolf keeps killing, the Detective won’t find any more Wolves. His information is limited by good play. Of course, the Detective could claim early, revealing the Vampire and one Wolf. Then it’ll become a race between the protectors and the scum to see how long the Detective can hold out. I’ve considered this worst-case scenario for the scum and think it’s ok. The Detective is the huge threat to the Undead, since they won’t have the numbers of the Wolves. The Vampire works like the Serial Killer, but with survival of the Necromancer as the goal. I think the Undead are balanced. > [@](#): > > I don’t see a way for the coroner to use his power without giving himself away. If he starts bandwagons then he’ll get munched. If he doesn’t then his info is useless within a day. Yep, one of the less useful roles. The Coroner is basically a plain player, with a bonus insight. Not all power roles need to be _powerful_. > [@](#): > > The scotsman just seems like a red herring, especially if his identify is revealed afterwards. The bulletproof townie is basically the same thing, but without the one-shot effect. They can’t be killed at night at all, so once scum decides they weren’t being blocked in some way they’ll have to reveal themselves somewhat to start a lynch bandwagon against him or leave him alone. Similar comments apply to the magician. Right again, they’re basically simple Townies with a simple bonus. Good play for them would be more aggressive, since they know they can’t be killed as easily. > [@](#): > > How does your vigilantee know if he’s killed town or not? By my count there are potentially four kills each night(occultist, vigilante, werewolves, and vampire) not to mention one-shot kills like the warlocks retribution or the vigilante’s suicide. How does the vigilantee know if he killed town and has to suicide? He’ll find out two mornings after the kill (first morning is ID reveal, second is side reveal). The Vigilante is the alternate attack arm of the Town, but he bets his life each time he uses his attack. > [@](#): > > The witch doctor is very interesting, but seems wicked hard to play. Every time he protects someone successfully they come back and can finger scum(or the occultist/vig) without significant repercussions for their team. Basically the resurrected person becomes a one shot detective whom it doesn’t matter if the vamp or wolves munch the next night. Those kind of 1-1 trades are extremely good for the town, but the witch doctor is shooting in the dark as to who to protect, unless the witches claim of course. Probably the Witchdoctor will protect himself until he has a better target. And the number of scum is balanced against these kinds of trades (expect more than the usual number of scum in this game). And remember the WD can only save a player once. They can be killed permanently next time. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure the warlock adds anything to the game except an extra kill for the town on rare occasion. Why not just replace him with a [bomb](http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Bomb)? Ah, see my idea isn’t original. I guess this is just my version of the Bomb. > [@](#): > > The occultist seems capable of breaking the game, but I’m not sure how to explain it beyond your example. That’s a ton of info and would move a game from midgame to endgame in a single swoop. If he joined in with the witches in announcing himself and having the GA/Witch Doctor protect him and had people volunteer to be his sacrifices each night you could break this thing open fast at the cost of only a couple townies. **Chronos** ’s explanation kills the Occultist. > [@](#): > > The vicar seems to be a role blocker for a role which has its work cut out for it already. The Vicar vs Necromancer is actually well balanced. Each day-night cycle, there’ll typically be two or three new deaths. The Vicar can only bless one per day, so the bodies will be stacking up faster than he can bless. Unless the Town and Wolves hold back on lynching/killing. So, about mid-game, when half the players are dead, the Undead will be close to winning, unless the Vicar played well. Killing the Necromancer will thus be the first order of business for the other sides. And since he doesn’t kill directly the killer-ID powers don’t help. > [@](#): > > The cabal seem to be the most likely victors of most games and they have to work the least to make it happen. Lead bandwagons and vote en bloc for lynching suspected witches or help the werewolves find the witches and then help the town win. The town would be dumb to retaliate against the cabal because they’d be throwing the game to the wolves/undead. Still this role seems easy and pretty likely to pay off with a minimum of work which could breed resentment among some of the players. Interesting. I was thinking the Cabal had it the hardest. Their only way to win is to sway votes and stay hidden. While the Cabal will need to help the Town early to kill Undead and Wolves, if the Witches survive, they’re screwed, since the Town will certainly never lynch a Witch. And the Town should view the Cabal is a buffer against the other scum (taking hits for them, since the Cabal will need to be out there swaying votes). > [@](#): > > The undead can’t win unless the necromancer is very clever, because they’re not. Sounds like a horribly unfun role to play. Might be different if they had a night kill, but that would make them mechanically pretty much like the wolves. > The vampire seems to be a super Serial Killer. Does he count towards the undead numbers? If so then he should work together with the necromancer, which makes his job a lot easier than a standard SK’s. > The necromancer has an extremely hard job and has to do it on his own because his minions are all brainless. All the eggs for his entire faction are literally in his basket. Doesn’t sound like a lot of fun for either him or those counting on him for their chance to win. The Vampire(s) feeds kills to the Necromancer and doesn’t need to survive to win. The Undead win on any night that their count (Vampire(s) + Necro + Zombies) outnumbers all others combined. The Necromancer just needs to survive until midgame, when the number zombies is greater than the number of live players. If anything, they’re too easy to win. I’ve considered allowing the Witchdoctor the ability to destroy one Zombie instead of casting the protective spell. Thoughts on that? BTW, the Vampire doesn’t know who the Necromancer is (and vice versa), and a same-side kill is possible. So it goes. > [@](#): > > About the only note I have on the wolves is that it makes sense for them to always send their alpha wolf out to kill. If he’s targeted by anyone other than the Vig or Vamp(this would make him immune to the warlock’s retribution and the magician’s shifting powers as well as the occultist’s sacrificing powers, correct?) then he finds out who they are and the wolves munch a power role. The wolves have nothing to lose by doing this because they’ll always get a new alpha if they lose this one. Yep, you’ve figured out the basic Wolf strategy. The Alpha would not be killed by the Warlock’s curse. The Magician will still escape if the Alpha is his target, but the Alpha would survive the attack, if not Vampire/Vigilante. As to my motivations, my primary goal was to build in more mini-games. More things for players to weigh when thinking about what to do. And shifting “alliances” among the different sides. General gameplay: everyone wants to get the Necromancer as soon as possible. But he has the perfect lurking role and will be hard to find. The Cabal will be helping the Town, except for trying to either get the Witches lynched or night-killed. The Detective will have to decide when to claim. Too early, and the Undead have a big advantage (with the Town killing Wolves instead of trying for the Necro). Many of the roles are basically Vanilla Townies with an extra option. Not unbalancing, but giving the player something more to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/482 "2007-05-12T15:02:21Z")
storyteller survived the night? I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked. Anyone want to offer odds that the first person to say that the Mafia let him survive so that people would suspect him is the other Mafioso? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/483 "2007-05-12T15:29:21Z")
A few more thoughts: First, if I’m understanding the rules correctly, a simultaneous wolf-undead win is possible, since the Zombies count when checking for the Undead win, but don’t count when checking for the Wolf win. Was this your intention? Second, I think it’s possible for the Warlock to accidentally kill himself. Say, on night 1, Warlock enchants John Q (who is, of course, a vanilla townie), and that night, Greyback eats John Q. Second night, Warlock enchants Greyback, not knowing he’s a Wolf. Greyback dies from the Warlock’s curse, and thus can be said to have been killed by the Warlock. The Warlock has now killed someone who was enchanted, so on the third night, the curse rebounds and kills the Warlock. Probably very unlikely, but it’s an interesting possibility. Third, the Necromancer only has to survive long enough to win, but the flip side is that he can’t win earlier than that, either, and everyone knows when he’s going to win. So they don’t have to aim for the Necromancer early on; they can just shoot for the Wolves and hope that the Witches or Seer finds the Necromancer before that critical point (which might never even come, if the kill rate slows down enough). Fourth, speaking of that, the Witches are nearly as good as the Seer at finding the Necromancer. If they get a reading of “undead” on a player, there are only two possible roles that could be, and the Vampire is easily identified by other killer-finder roles. Fifth, you mentioned “good play” by the Vicar. I’m not sure there is such a thing. One corpse is as good as any other, for the Necromancer, so the only sensible tactic for both the Necromancer and the Vicar is to choose their targets at random. Well, actually, both should show a slight preference against freshly-dead night kills, since they might be jujued, but the chance of juju is small enough that a uniform distribution is probably close enough. Sixth, it’s possible for the killings to stop without the game ending. If the Wolves and the Vampire are all dead, but the Necromancer still lives, then the game keeps going, and depending on the number already dead, the Town might be able to stop their lynches and beat the Necromancer in the body race. This was actually the most probable outcome, with the Occultist in the game, but even without him, there are enough killer-finders that I think this is still pretty likely. The game would then enter a long, boring phase, waiting for the Seer and Witches to investigate everyone, the Masons to all find each other, and the Vicar to account for all the corpses, at which point everyone outs themselves and the Town and/or the Vigilante kill off the Necromancer and possibly any remaining Cabalists. Or, it’s even possible for the game to end in a stalemate, where the Town can’t afford to kill any Cabalists lest they be outnumbered by the Zombies, and can’t afford to kill the Necromancer, either, since they’ve run out of Witches and don’t want to trigger a Cabal win. In that case, the game would go on forever with day after day of “no lynch” votes and night after night of nothing happening at all. Seventh, having a lot of almost-vanilla roles might not make much difference for those roles, but it _does_ make a difference for the Seer, in that it makes it a lot easier for the Seer to roleclaim. If the Seer roleclaims and says “Alice, Bob, and Carol are all vanilla townies”, then Alice, Bob, and Carol can each individually say “Eh, lucky guess” and continue to doubt. But if the Seer says “Alice is vanilla with chocolate chips, Bob is vanilla with strawberries, and Carol is vanilla with fudge swirls”, then Alice, Bob, and Carol each separately know (or at least, have good reason to believe) that the Seer’s claim is correct, because how else would e have known their roles? ---
**Author:** ![panamajack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/47e85d/32.png) [@panamajack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panamajack)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/484 "2007-05-12T16:05:46Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] storyteller survived the night? I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked. Anyone want to offer odds that the first person to say that the Mafia let him survive so that people would suspect him is the other Mafioso? [/QUOTE] **Lakai** already set that up the day before, so it’s no surprise. Even if **Lakai** ’s not the Godperson, (s?)he’s played a brilliant game. And now **Queuing** is saying he ought to be pushed off until tomorrow, which is either scummy or a mistake - the town needs to get a Mafia today or they lose. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/485 "2007-05-12T16:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] A few more thoughts: First, if I’m understanding the rules correctly, a simultaneous wolf-undead win is possible, since the Zombies count when checking for the Undead win, but don’t count when checking for the Wolf win. Was this your intention? [/quote] The Wolves check in the day (before the lynch), and the Undead at night, before the kills. > [@](#): > > Second, I think it’s possible for the Warlock to accidentally kill himself. Say, on night 1, Warlock enchants John Q (who is, of course, a vanilla townie), and that night, Greyback eats John Q. Second night, Warlock enchants Greyback, not knowing he’s a Wolf. Greyback dies from the Warlock’s curse, and thus can be said to have been killed by the Warlock. The Warlock has now killed someone who was enchanted, so on the third night, the curse rebounds and kills the Warlock. Probably very unlikely, but it’s an interesting possibility. Hehe, I hadn’t thought out that possibility. Occupational hazard for the Warlock, then. > [@](#): > > Third, the Necromancer only has to survive long enough to win, but the flip side is that he can’t win earlier than that, either, and everyone knows when he’s going to win. So they don’t have to aim for the Necromancer early on; they can just shoot for the Wolves and hope that the Witches or Seer finds the Necromancer before that critical point (which might never even come, if the kill rate slows down enough). Yep, that’s one of the considerations the players will have to make. > [@](#): > > Fourth, speaking of that, the Witches are nearly as good as the Seer at finding the Necromancer. If they get a reading of “undead” on a player, there are only two possible roles that could be, and the Vampire is easily identified by other killer-finder roles. Yes, that’s needed to give a fair shot at finding the Necromancer. > [@](#): > > Fifth, you mentioned “good play” by the Vicar. I’m not sure there is such a thing. One corpse is as good as any other, for the Necromancer, so the only sensible tactic for both the Necromancer and the Vicar is to choose their targets at random. Well, actually, both should show a slight preference against freshly-dead night kills, since they might be jujued, but the chance of juju is small enough that a uniform distribution is probably close enough. I regretted that phrase after rereading it later. Lucky is more appropriate. But it’ll be the players supplying the randomness, not the ruleset, so I’m happy with it. > [@](#): > > Sixth, it’s possible for the killings to stop without the game ending. If the Wolves and the Vampire are all dead, but the Necromancer still lives, then the game keeps going, and depending on the number already dead, the Town might be able to stop their lynches and beat the Necromancer in the body race. This was actually the most probable outcome, with the Occultist in the game, but even without him, there are enough killer-finders that I think this is still pretty likely. The game would then enter a long, boring phase, waiting for the Seer and Witches to investigate everyone, the Masons to all find each other, and the Vicar to account for all the corpses, at which point everyone outs themselves and the Town and/or the Vigilante kill off the Necromancer and possibly any remaining Cabalists. Or, it’s even possible for the game to end in a stalemate, where the Town can’t afford to kill any Cabalists lest they be outnumbered by the Zombies, and can’t afford to kill the Necromancer, either, since they’ve run out of Witches and don’t want to trigger a Cabal win. In that case, the game would go on forever with day after day of “no lynch” votes and night after night of nothing happening at all. I worried some about stalemate conditions. but I don’t think it’s likely. Turns can go quickly if a majority votes “no lynch”. In the specific case where the Town loses whoever the lynch, I’d mod-rule they have to make a lynch, and choose the largest vote-getter. It’d mostly likely be a Cabal win, and probably well deserved. > [@](#): > > Seventh, having a lot of almost-vanilla roles might not make much difference for those roles, but it _does_ make a difference for the Seer, in that it makes it a lot easier for the Seer to roleclaim. If the Seer roleclaims and says “Alice, Bob, and Carol are all vanilla townies”, then Alice, Bob, and Carol can each individually say “Eh, lucky guess” and continue to doubt. But if the Seer says “Alice is vanilla with chocolate chips, Bob is vanilla with strawberries, and Carol is vanilla with fudge swirls”, then Alice, Bob, and Carol each separately know (or at least, have good reason to believe) that the Seer’s claim is correct, because how else would e have known their roles? True. I don’t see this as a problem. Thanks for the feedback. I think I have a good (if complex) setup. I’ve thought quite a bit about it, and the critiques are useful since I’m no Perfect Master. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/486 "2007-05-12T22:22:16Z")
Hi, guys! Which way to the nachos? So, I’m curious. Why do you think they killed me? I’ve got some guesses: 1. Because I said I would push hard to lynch Lakai today, meaning he is indeed mafia. 2. Because I called Queuing on why he wanted to go after Kat/Fretful instead of Lakai, meaning he and Lakai are the last two Mafia. 3. Because by killing me instead of Storyteller, and having Lakai make those posts, they have an outside chance of getting Storyteller lynched instead. Any other theories? ---
**Author:** ![brewha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@brewha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brewha)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/487 "2007-05-12T22:31:13Z")
I figured you’d be the next to go. You’re the only one that I actually trusted to be town. I never said that in game, because I feared that the mafia would kill you. So much for that idea. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2007, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/488 "2007-05-12T22:47:28Z")
[QUOTE=brewha] I figured you’d be the next to go. You’re the only one that I actually trusted to be town. I never said that in game, because I feared that the mafia would kill you. So much for that idea. [/QUOTE] Well, thanks for the attempt to keep me breathing, anyway. 🙂 I sort of thought I was asking to be killed when I challenged Queuing, but I hoped maybe it would raise suspicions in the eyes of the remaining three townies, whoever they are. If they will at least lynch Lakai today… Very good game, NAF, thanks for running it! But I definitely wouldn’t sign up for any more, at least not until I have internet access at work. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/489 "2007-05-13T01:14:38Z")
> [@](#): > > If they will at least lynch Lakai today… Whyever would they do that, when they can instead have at least a 50% chance of instantly losing the game? Nah, I can’t see any reason, either. But apparently, **Queuing** does: > [@](#): > > Assuming that the pairs were correct, and Lakai is scum his lynching gains us nothing for the next day. Nothing except, of course, removing one Mafia vote, and possibly gaining a little more information to judge the last one one, and conceivably even winning, on the off chance he’s the last one left. I know I thought **Fretful** was the other one, but really, is there anything scummier than recommending that the Town _not_ lynch the one person everyone is almost convinced is Mafia? If it weren’t for the fact that the game’s not over, I’d think they were both scum, but as it is, **Queuing** is looking even worse than **Fretful**. I also note with interest that **Queuing** and **Lakai** are the two who are pushing the “Why wasn’t **Storyteller** lynched?” question. Of course, the obvious reason is so they could cast suspicion on him. Really, there wasn’t a compelling reason to choose **Storyteller** or **StarvingButStrong** (assuming both were Town): Both are about equally trusted, and neither one is in one of those either/or diads. I think that the Mafia is trying to cast suspicion on everyone, in the hopes that one of them will stick enough to sway a townie’s vote. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/490 "2007-05-13T04:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] storyteller survived the night? I’m shocked, I tell you, shocked. Anyone want to offer odds that the first person to say that the Mafia let him survive so that people would suspect him is the other Mafioso? [/QUOTE] I’ll take you up on that one. Doughnuts to dollars? ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/491 "2007-05-13T04:14:08Z")
[QUOTE=Pygmy Rugger] I’ll take you up on that one. Doughnuts to dollars? [/QUOTE] Yeah, just because I fell for **MonkeyMensch** ’s “neat trick” doesn’t mean that I’m that much of a sucker. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/492 "2007-05-13T08:43:34Z")
Sorry if this has already been done, but please could I have a summary of who has died and their roles? How many Mafia do we think are left? ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/493 "2007-05-13T15:19:07Z")
Woo hoo! I was finally right - SBS was citizen… yaaay… I guess… And for like the fifth time, WHY HAVEN’T THEY LYNCHED LAKAI?!?! Everyone who says something against him DIES that night! ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/494 "2007-05-13T16:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=glee] Sorry if this has already been done, but please could I have a summary of who has died and their roles? How many Mafia do we think are left? [/QUOTE] Sure, here is a list of the dead: One and Only Wanderers - Citizen ArizonaTeach - Citizen Autolycus - Citizen brewha - Citizen cowgirl - Citizen JSexton/chrisk - doctor Dnooman - Citizen glee - Citizen StarvingButStrong - Citizen Enfant Terrible - Citizen Fern Forest - Citizen Winston Smith - Citizen Menocchio - Citizen MadTheSwine - Citizen Rysto - Citizen Gadarene - Citizen hocow - Citizen Malacandra - Citizen Smitty/cowgirl - guardian Blaster Master - vigilantee Captain Carrot - mason Pleonast - mason Zuma - mason Sturmhauke - mason CaerieD - Detective pimaspinner - beat cop Kivvik - mafia Aguecheek - mafia nesta - mafia Pygmy Rugger - mafia Flying Cow of Doom - mafia Suburban Plankton - mafia MonkeyMensch - serial killer The current town thought is that there are 2 mafia left. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/495 "2007-05-13T17:15:29Z")
> [@](#): > > And for like the fifth time, WHY HAVEN’T THEY LYNCHED LAKAI?!?! Everyone who says something against him DIES that night! Much as I’m convinced that **Lakai** is scum, I don’t think this is quite correct. Look at how long **brewha** ’s survived (and he was lynched in the end, not hit), but he’s been gunning for **Lakai** for half the game. Admittedly, the Mafia didn’t really need to kill **brewha** , since he had almost no credibility with the Town, but it’s not quite so simple as “suspect **Lakai** = dead”. ---
**Author:** ![sturmhauke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47c2d/32.png) [@sturmhauke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sturmhauke)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/496 "2007-05-14T11:20:35Z")
My best guess right now is that Queuing and Lakai are the last scum. I had been pushing on Queuing when I died, but I didn’t have enough support from the rest of the town. I didn’t have a good read on Lakai when I was alive, but man he looks suspicious as all hell these days. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/497 "2007-05-14T14:15:03Z")
Go Fretful Porpentine! You’ve got it right, I think. And maybe you’ll notice I didn’t like Queuing’s reasoning for letting Lakai go, and there would be more ammo for you. If you can just get Kat and Storyteller to sign on, even just the first step of lynching Lakai, the town could still win. [Wouldn’t it be ironic if my biggest contribution to the town was dying when I did?] ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/498 "2007-05-14T17:13:31Z")
**Pleonast** , I’m still seeing a problem with the Witches as designed. They don’t all have to claim, because they can communicate, just one has to claim and then her sisters can protect her. The exposed witch can guide the lynchings and the vigilantee from behind the safety of her sisters’ protection. The Detective can similarly out himself and rely on the witches or gaurdian angel to protect him. Since he both gets his data during the day(meaning he can lead lynch mobs) and gets positive info about who is doing night kills, he’ll find the Vamp and Wolves in a number of nights equal to their total numbers. They have that time to find the GAs and/or witches and no more. In a standard game this strategy is balanced by the Detective sometimes wasting time investigating non scum. Therefore they have up to a maximum of the number of players worth of nights to find the Detective’s protectors. Not so with your tweak to the Detective role. Re: the Cabal. Who are thier predators? Who is going after them? The witches? The witches care more about their own protection than they do about killing Cabalists. By protecting themselves they can both defeat the Cabal and save their own lives. The wolves don’t care about them much, if any, more than they would about standard Masons. They can kill them at any time and the Cabal has no investigation powers to threaten the wolves. It’s this lack of natural predators that make me think the Cabal will do well with a minimum of effort. As for the undead, let me make sure I understand the role. I thought there would be some players who had the role of “vanilla undead”, is that accurate? If so that’s where my “unfun” comments apply. They can’t do anything to help their team except use their votes/voices to deflect attention away from the Vamp and Necro(assuming they can figure out who they are). Out of all your roles this faction was the most confusing to me. With your active help in the thread as a GM you may be able to resolve a lot of these issues, but be prepared for a lot of questions and some difficulty determining strategy for this group. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/499 "2007-05-14T17:48:07Z")
I hope we see a lot more posts by both **Queuing** and **Fretful Porpentine**. I just can’t decide which of them is the last Mafioso. Subjectively, **Queuing** looks a lot scummier, but objectively, **Fretful Porpentine** does. I have a detailed analysis typed up, if anyone wants to see it, but if anyone other than **Lakai** and **Fretful Porpentine** were Mafia, then the lynch of **Pygmy Rugger** could have been averted or prevented in favor of a Town lynching. Now, maybe such a shift would have been suspicious, but I think that the Mafia could have manufactured a reason plausible enough to cover it (or even voted differently in the first place, so there’d be no need of a shift). The only circumstances in which it couldn’t have been done at all are if **Lakai** alone is Mafia, if **Fretful Porpentine** alone is, or if they both are. ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683/500 "2007-05-14T18:13:35Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] I hope we see a lot more posts by both **Queuing** and **Fretful Porpentine**. I just can’t decide which of them is the last Mafioso. Subjectively, **Queuing** looks a lot scummier, but objectively, **Fretful Porpentine** does. I have a detailed analysis typed up, if anyone wants to see it, but if anyone other than **Lakai** and **Fretful Porpentine** were Mafia, then the lynch of **Pygmy Rugger** could have been averted or prevented in favor of a Town lynching. Now, maybe such a shift would have been suspicious, but I think that the Mafia could have manufactured a reason plausible enough to cover it (or even voted differently in the first place, so there’d be no need of a shift). The only circumstances in which it couldn’t have been done at all are if **Lakai** alone is Mafia, if **Fretful Porpentine** alone is, or if they both are. [/QUOTE] (psst: [look at this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8555290&postcount=384) ) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/backseat-hitmen-off-limits-to-living-mafia-players/397683.md?page=26)