# "Bad" grammar and music: How universal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786 "2014-08-17T22:49:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/1 "2014-08-17T22:49:31Z")
I was listening to the Talking Head’s “Burning Down the House” today. The line “don’t wanna hurt nobody” has been looping in my head all day. 🙂 I remember riding in a car with my father a long time ago, when I was a young teen. Lenny Kravitz’s song “It Ain’t Over Til It’s Over” was playing on the radio, and my father started trashing it because of the “a” word. Nevermind this is a guy who is a lover of rock and roll music. There probably isn’t a rock and roll song that doesn’t significantly depart from the King’s English. But the “ain’t” was gratuitous in his opinion, so the song sucked. Which meant I thought it was totally awesome. The song wouldn’t have been the same if Lenny had sang, “It’s not over…”. It just wouldn’t have conveyed the same emotion or attitude. Rock and roll is supposed to be cool. For whatever reason, dropped syllables and consonants, double negatives, and deftly placed “ain’ts” sound cool. So now I’m wondering: Do song lyrics in other languages subvert their respective rules of grammar like American songs often do? Or is this an American thing likely stemming from the roots of rock and roll in black culture? ---
**Author:** ![Personal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Personal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Personal)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/2 "2014-08-17T23:28:04Z")
McCartney: _But if this ever-changing world in which we live in Makes you give in and cry, say live and let die_ I cringe every time. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/3 "2014-08-17T23:38:16Z")
Where my girls at? From the front to back. Well, **is** you feeling that? Put one hand up. Where My Girls At? -702 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Mondegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/91b2a8/32.png) [@Lord\_Mondegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Mondegreen)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/4 "2014-08-17T23:40:30Z")
> [@Personal](#): > > McCartney: > > _But if this ever-changing world in which we live in > Makes you give in and cry, say live and let die_ > > I cringe every time. I thought that first line you quoted was, "But if this ever-changing world in which we’re livin’ ". Which makes it perfectly good English. > [@monstro](#): > > I remember riding in a car with my father a long time ago, when I was a young teen. Lenny Kravitz’s song “It Ain’t Over Til It’s Over” was playing on the radio, and my father started trashing it because of the “a” word. Nevermind this is a guy who is a lover of rock and roll music. There probably isn’t a rock and roll song that doesn’t significantly depart from the King’s English. Yep, if you’re looking for good grammar in rock and roll you probably won’t get no satisfaction. ---
**Author:** ![PSXer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/48db29/32.png) [@PSXer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PSXer)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/5 "2014-08-17T23:42:22Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The song wouldn’t have been the same if Lenny had sang, “It’s not over…”. It if Lenny had \*sung no one knows how to form past contrafactual sentences in real life! No wonder music has bad grammar! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/6 "2014-08-17T23:47:47Z")
The one that always sets my teeth on edge is “Touch Me” by the Doors. _'Til the stars fall from the sky, for you and I._ Especially since there is a perfectly cromulent way to write the line that says the same thing, correctly: _'Til the stars fall to the sea, for you and me._ But the correct grammar would screw up Jim’s howling, and the song is more important than the words. Don’t get me started on Neil Diamond… ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/7 "2014-08-17T23:51:15Z")
Well, “It ain’t over until it’s over” is a line originally attributed to Yogi Berra and Yog wasn’t no intellectual. I thought of Twisted Sister: “We’re not gonna take it. No, we ain’t gonna take it.” ---
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2014, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/8 "2014-08-17T23:55:26Z")
I like interpreting double negatives literally; for example, “don’t go nowhere” would mean “go somewhere.” It can have some amusing results - _Oh darling/please believe me/ I’ll never do you no harm . . ._ ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/9 "2014-08-18T00:11:28Z")
“Hungry eyes I feel the magic between you and I…” Love ya, Eric Carmen, but someone needs to school you in pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/10 "2014-08-18T00:14:13Z")
There’s bad grammar, there’s register and there’s dialect. Only the first is “wrong”. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/11 "2014-08-18T00:17:00Z")
Certain “bad grammar” is genuine colloquial speech. Things like “ain’t” and “he don’t” don’t bother me. The “for you and I” thing, however, is just ignorant. Yes, people really say that, but it is not a generally accepted term within the dialect (it’s usually people trying to speak “correct English” and failing). This error is egregiously prominent in Paula Cole’s “I Don’t Want to Wait”: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlvojIit7-8) It’s often used for a rhyme, as in this case. “Ain’t” absolutely necessary in a lot of songs for rhythm, since words like “isn’t” and “aren’t” typically don’t fit. I wouldn’t even consider it dialect at this point; it’s more of a necessary song lyrics trope. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/12 "2014-08-18T00:18:13Z")
Actually, the Paula Cole lyric is worse. It’s not “for you and I” but just “for I.” Ack! ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/13 "2014-08-18T00:20:41Z")
Tell your dad it’s classic. “You ain’t a nothing but a hound dog-uh Cryin’ all the time” C’mon, it’s an awesome some and it’s got ‘ain’t’, a double negative, and terrible pronunciation. What more can anyone ask? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/14 "2014-08-18T00:22:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I was listening to the Talking Head’s “Burning Down the House” today. Which Talking Head? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Personal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Personal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Personal)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/15 "2014-08-18T00:25:24Z")
> [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > I thought that first line you quoted was, "But if this ever-changing world in which we’re livin’ ". Which makes it perfectly good English. Good call. I hadn’t considered that. I’m going to listen to it, but my memory tells me that in both the McCartney and Guns N Roses version the “we live in" is distinct. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/16 "2014-08-18T00:53:44Z")
At least “it ain’t over” and “don’t wanna hurt nobody” mimic the way some people actually talk. But then there’s this verbal monstrosity by America: "In the desert, you can remember your name **’Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain"** Wha-hell?? Does anyone for talk like that? ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/17 "2014-08-18T03:33:25Z")
> [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > I thought that first line you quoted was, "But if this ever-changing world in which we’re livin’ ". Which makes it perfectly good English. > Yep, if you’re looking for good grammar in rock and roll you probably won’t get no satisfaction. Ha! “We don’t need no education.” Yes, you do. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/18 "2014-08-18T03:56:00Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > At least “it ain’t over” and “don’t wanna hurt nobody” mimic the way some people actually talk. > > But then there’s this verbal monstrosity by America: > > "In the desert, you can remember your name > **'Cause there ain’t no one for to give you no pain"** > > Wha-hell?? Does anyone for talk like that? Even worse - “Oz never did give nothin’ to the Tin Man that he didn’t, didn’t already have.” ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/19 "2014-08-18T04:03:37Z")
When Pat Boone decided to cover Fats Domino’s “Ain’t That A Shame”, he wanted to change the title to “Isn’t That a Shame” because “ain’t” is poor grammar. Does that give you a reason why rock and rollers like poor grammar? ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/20 "2014-08-18T04:28:13Z")
> [@Personal](#): > > McCartney: > > _But if this ever-changing world in which we live in > Makes you give in and cry, say live and let die_ > > I cringe every time. > [@Lord\_Mondegreen](#): > > I thought that first line you quoted was, "But if this ever-changing world in which we’re livin’ ". Which makes it perfectly good English. It is. When people bring this up it makes ME cringe. [Here’s an entry about the song on The Grammarphobia Blog](http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2010/12/lyric.html) in which the writer also writes “In fact, we don’t generally get all hot and bothered about ungrammatical song lyrics. As we’ve written before on the blog, lyric writers are exempt from the rules of grammar, syntax, usage, spelling, pronunciation, and even logic!” [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786.md?page=2)