# "Bad" grammar and music: How universal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 17, 2014, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786 "2014-08-17T22:49:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Kimble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimble/32/19185_2.png) [@Kimble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimble)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/21 "2014-08-18T05:18:24Z")
> [@PSXer](#): > > if Lenny had \*sung > no one knows how to form past contrafactual sentences in real life! No wonder music has bad grammar! Michael Penn does! He was even on MTV for like 15 minutes or so! _What if I were Romeo in black jeans? What if I was Heathcliff – it’s no myth Maybe she’s just looking for someone to dance with_ – “[No Myth](http://youtu.be/IxkJHX7ukKE)” (He even doesn’t fall for the overly proscriptive “Don’t end sentences with a preposition!” that all those Latin speakers tried to foist on us! Plus, he’s married to Aimee Mann! He’s my hero!) Re: the original question: “La Bamba” and “Feliz Navidad” seem grammatically correct. None of the songs I sang in Russian 201 had errors that I remember. The parts of Stereolab songs that I stick into Google Translate come up as proper English and they don’t seem obviously wrong. +1 to all the complaints about “for [you and] I” ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/22 "2014-08-18T07:33:42Z")
Whenever I sing along to Iggy & the Stooges’ _Search and Destroy_ I always change the line “Ain’t got time to make no apology” to “Ain’t got time to make _an_ apology”. “Ain’t” doesn’t bother me, double-negatives do. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2014, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/23 "2014-08-18T07:56:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > So now I’m wondering: Do song lyrics in other languages subvert their respective rules of grammar like American songs often do? Or is this an American thing likely stemming from the roots of rock and roll in black culture? For what it’s worth, I think this would be an interesting Thread topic. It would be awesome if someone would write an OP asking this question. Oh, wait . . . Crazy enough, I opened this Thread because I wanted to read a discussion of what the OP (and Thread title) actually asked (yes, yes, I should know better by now). I recently wrote a song in French. Once upon a time, my French was pretty good. My French isn’t particularly good these days but writing allowed me to take my time and look things up and correct mistakes, so I was fairly confident that I did a good job. I showed the lyrics to two friends who are _academically_ fluent in French and both agreed that I did a good job. Both of them pointed out the same few minor errors. Still, it left me wondering whether or not I couldn’t have kept my “errors”. Most of the errors I was aware of (things like leaving about prepositions before infinitves) but I went with it because it was better for the meter. I figured, well, grammar and popular music, right? But even if grammatical errors are acceptible in French songs, I have no way of knowing _which_ errors are acceptible and which errors are not. So, I’m making the corrections that were pointed out to me. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/24 "2014-08-19T13:16:26Z")
> [@Kimble](#): > > Re: the original question: “La Bamba” and “Feliz Navidad” seem grammatically correct. For La Bamba often you get versions where the lyrics are horrible mixups of English and Spanish, or where the Spanish clearly shows that the singer thinks the morning greeting should be “bwe nahs dee ahs”. For example, in the Valens version it says “una poca de gracia” when grammatically it should be _un poco de gracia_ (but that needs one more syllable), so normally it’s _un poquito de gracia_ (grammatically correct, the diminutive gives it the right length). Dude’s Espanish wasn’t too gud so he hypercorrected, yanow? Feliz Navidad, well, gee, with that amount of lyrics it’s hard to screw up. Manu Chao’s Spanish lyrics sometimes ain’t nothing RAE would approve of, but they work. They can be good examples of “who cares if the grammar isn’t perfect, are you understood? Yes? OK then!” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/25 "2014-08-19T13:27:00Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Whenever I sing along to Iggy & the Stooges’ _Search and Destroy_ I always change the line “Ain’t got time to make no apology” to “Ain’t got time to make _an_ apology”. … and cut yourself on the chest with a carefully sterilized razor blade? ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/26 "2014-08-19T13:49:10Z")
Complaining about grammar in song lyrics, like complaining about it in poetry, is generally a silly exercise. In general, I’d much prefer maintaining meter, tone, and if appropriate, rhyming scheme, than be concerned about proper grammar or whatever. To this end, words like “ain’t” or a double negative are sometimes not only okay, but actually the appropriate thing to use to maintain those things. That said, nothing irritates me more than when the phrasing is tortured or awkward just to try to make it rhyme, and often that means the meter is off too. Another thing that irritates me is when a song is using a well known expression, and changes it to make it fit the meter and rhyme. For example, a recent song by a band that I love used the line “it gave us a reason and a rhyme”, which would normally be fine, but because I’m used to hearing the expression as “rhyme and reason”, it pulled me out of an otherwise fantastic song for a second. Regardless of all of this, since a significant amount of the music I listen to is by non-native English speakers, I hear plenty of turns of phrase that seem a little odd. Sometimes it pulls me out of it, sometimes it’s actually better because they’re less limited by the sorts of constraints that a native speaker would have been. So, I’m quite willing to forgive a lot, particularly if they can maintain the meter and tone properly. ---
**Author:** ![Sterling\_Archer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Sterling\_Archer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterling_Archer)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/27 "2014-08-20T14:06:02Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Ha! > > “We don’t need no education.” Yes, you do. \That eez tha joke\ ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/28 "2014-08-21T03:19:17Z")
I thought of a horrific example in “Danny’s Song” by Kenny Loggins: **He will be like she and me, as free as a dove.** There is also no reason for it not to be “you and me.” Horrendous. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/29 "2014-08-21T03:33:37Z")
> [@Daddypants](#): > > Ha! > > “We don’t need no education.” Yes, you do. That’s alright, it’s done purposefully for effect. The only ones that would bother me are genuine grammar errors by the writer when a correct sentence would fit the lyric just as well. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/30 "2014-08-21T03:35:15Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I thought of a horrific example in “Danny’s Song” by Kenny Loggins: > > **He will be like she and me, as free as a dove.** > > There is also no reason for it not to be “you and me.” > > Horrendous. “You” doesn’t gel as well with the “he”. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/31 "2014-08-21T04:01:14Z")
> [@Shakester](#): > > Whenever I sing along to Iggy & the Stooges’ _Search and Destroy_ I always change the line “Ain’t got time to make no apology” to “Ain’t got time to make _an_ apology”. > > “Ain’t” doesn’t bother me, double-negatives do. So how do you feel about “I can’t get no satisfaction”? I personally like double negatives, as I’m used to hearing them (they’re common in my dialect) and I think of them as “negative agreement” rather than “double negatives.” When I hear them (in most contexts), it reinforces the negative, rather than act like some sort of logical toggle that turns the statement positive. The “ain’t no one for to give you no pain” is what I immediately thought of, given the thread title. That’s a pretty tortured sentence, and doesn’t come off (to me) as being a sentence any English speaker would ever construct. Yes, even giving poetic license, that’s a pretty awful line. ---
**Author:** ![skygirlsixtwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/34f0e0/32.png) [@skygirlsixtwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skygirlsixtwo)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/32 "2014-08-21T17:34:07Z")
YES!!! That is THE song I always try to give yet another chance…and I can never get through it. That particular line especially, stops me every time! ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/33 "2014-08-21T19:04:10Z")
One from John Mellencamp from “Small Town.” _No I cannot forget from where it is that I come from._ Really John? You must have been listening to “A Horse With No Name” when you wrote that one. ---
**Author:** ![Clarisse\_McClellan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Clarisse\_McClellan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clarisse_McClellan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/34 "2014-08-21T19:46:27Z")
Double negatives for effect dont bother me at all. But this: \*Song she sang to me Song she brang to me \* makes me want to slap Neil Diamond every time I hear it. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/35 "2014-08-21T22:17:28Z")
You are nothing if not a hound dog. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/36 "2014-08-21T22:23:59Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > One from John Mellencamp from “Small Town.” > > _No I cannot forget from where it is that I come from._ I’ve been to Seymour, Indiana. His high school English teachers probably pronounced “cannot” “cain’t.” He’s doing pretty well. My toes curl when I hear “I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free.” DAMMIT! “where” needs an antecedent, and “American” isn’t it! It should either be “I’m proud to be **in America** , where at least I know I’m free,” or “I’m proud to be an American, \*\*because \*\*at least I know I’m free.” Pick one. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/37 "2014-08-21T22:33:03Z")
> [@RivkahChaya](#): > > I’ve been to Seymour, Indiana. His high school English teachers probably pronounced “cannot” “cain’t.” He’s doing pretty well. > > My toes curl when I hear “I’m proud to be an American, where at least I know I’m free.” > > DAMMIT! “where” needs an antecedent, and “American” isn’t it! > > It should either be “I’m proud to be **in America** , where at least I know I’m free,” or “I’m proud to be an American, \*\*because \*\*at least I know I’m free.” Pick one. That’s never bugged me, but something about the “at least” does. Not the grammar, just the sentiment. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/38 "2014-08-21T23:05:31Z")
> [@Kimble](#): > > Michael Penn does! He was even on MTV for like 15 minutes or so! > > _What if I were Romeo in black jeans? > What if I was Heathcliff – it’s no myth > Maybe she’s just looking for someone to dance with_ Shouldn’t the verbs both be “were”? Similarly, Cowboy Junkies - If You Were The Woman & I Was The Man: If you were the woman and I was the man … If I was the woman and you were the man? … If I was the heart and you were the head ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/39 "2014-08-21T23:39:03Z")
There’s one from the Doors that I can’t remember but googling around I found these by various artists…“I can’t get no satisfaction” “Bobbie Sue took the money and run.” “Who do you love?” "Songs she sang to me, songs she brang to me :eek: “I Feel Good” “Me and Bobby McGee” ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2014, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786/40 "2014-08-21T23:47:06Z")
Q: What does Neil Diamond’s guitar sound like? A: _BRANG!_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-grammar-and-music-how-universal/695786.md?page=3)