# Bad ideas that are bad, versus good ideas that are/were poorly executed **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645 "2019-06-17T14:48:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/1 "2019-06-17T14:48:32Z")
With regards to fascism and Nazism, the vast majority of people can agree that those are simply bad ideas that are inherently bad. With regards to socialism, though, there are a significant number of people who feel that it isn’t bad, but rather, a _good idea that was poorly executed_ - perhaps even the same for Communism. I am \*\*\*not \*\*\*trying to make this into a debate about socialism (we’ve had numerous threads about that,) but rather, about the broader concept of - what things are bad ideas that are simply bad, and what are good ideas that just weren’t done the right way? Is prevention of illegal immigration a good thing, but locking them up in cages is the wrong way of doing it? Is gun ownership a good thing, but done the wrong way in America? Etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/2 "2019-06-17T15:02:27Z")
This seems like a recipe for having multiple discussions on contentious topics at the same time and both your examples are of a completely different nature than socialism and fascism. Regarding “prevention of illegal immigration” for instance there are those who considers the right solution to be “make all immigration legal”, but it’s a different kind of philosophical discussion whether “prevention of illegal immigration” is inherently bad, given the current laws, so even those might not be entirely in that camp. Trying to define the premises of such a sub-discussion, while doing the same for “gun ownership” and “etc. etc.”, does not seem like a worthwhile endeavor. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/3 "2019-06-17T15:14:47Z")
I think private health insurance would fit. In many nations with UHC they either rely on private insurance as a major insurer if not the sole insurer, or they have private insurance as an option to supplement public insurance. In those systems people have affordable health care, nobody goes bankrupt and nobody gets surprise bills in the mail. But private insurance in the US is a nightmare. There are endless ways they can avoid paying the bills. Because the public sector underpays, private insurance overpays resulting in higher premiums. The private insurance death spiral means prices spin out of control and are only kept under control by making insurance more and more evil, cruel and unreliable. Done right, private insurance has a positive role in a universal health care system. In America private insurance is run with such evil and cruelty that many people are calling for a full ban and just a single public payer system. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/4 "2019-06-17T15:30:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > With regards to fascism and Nazism, the vast majority of people can agree that those are simply bad ideas that are inherently bad. With regards to socialism, though, there are a significant number of people who feel that it isn’t bad, but rather, a _good idea that was poorly executed_ - perhaps even the same for Communism. > I am \*\*\*not \*\*\*trying to make this into a debate about socialism (we’ve had numerous threads about that,) but rather, about the broader concept of - what things are bad ideas that are simply bad, and what are good ideas that just weren’t done the right way? > > Is prevention of illegal immigration a good thing, but locking them up in cages is the wrong way of doing it? Is gun ownership a good thing, but done the wrong way in America? Etc. etc. “Socialism” is a word we need to get rid of. Socialism and Communism describes a type of authoritarian government where people dont even have the freedom to get rich. It was a horrible, no good, bad idea. Except perhaps in small voluntary communes. “Democratic Socialism” is a government where taking care of it’s citizens comes first, where much tax is funneled into social programs. _Nordic model_ nations are a great example. The USA has many socialist programs, such as Social Security, Medicare, etc. > **[Nordic model](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model)** > > Chronological history > The Nordic model comprises the economic and social policies as well as typical cultural practices common in the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Iceland, Norway, and Sweden). This includes a comprehensive welfare state and multi-level collective bargaining based on the economic foundations of social corporatism, and a commitment to private ownership within a market-based mixed economy – with Norway being a partial exception due to a large number of state-owned enterpr... Illegal Immigration is a bad thing, because it’s based upon racism and Xenophobia. We could fix it (for example) by having a free and easy guest worker system, allowing farmworkers to come and work where needed. This doesnt mean open borders. Gun ownership is America isnt a bad thing, and this will quickly degenerate into another gun debate. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/5 "2019-06-17T15:35:50Z")
> [@naita](#): > > This seems like a recipe for having multiple discussions on contentious topics at the same time Yeah, that was my reaction. So I’m going to offer a more meta observation: It may well be that _some_ “good ideas that are/were poorly executed” may be “good ideas” in theory; but human nature being what it is, they don’t have any real chance of being well-executed. In which case I don’t think they really count as good ideas after all. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/6 "2019-06-17T16:23:20Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > With regards to fascism and Nazism, the vast majority of people can agree that those are simply bad ideas that are inherently bad. I’m not even sure I can agree with the premise. When I was growing up I remember hearing more than once, “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time.” [Even Snopes discussed it.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/) As for Nazis, aka National Socialists, for a pop culture discussion of whether the idea itself is corrupt or the people who implemented it, I’d suggest watching the[Star Trek (original series) episode “Patterns of Force.”](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(episode)) Similarly, it’s been debated for nearly a century whether the Soviet Union would have been better if the Mensheviks had succeeded Kerensky’s government rather than the Bolsheviks. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/7 "2019-06-17T16:56:32Z")
Law enforcement. Punishment. Putting the “good people” in charge and letting them make the decisions that the rest of us must obey. These all appear to be excellent ideas for which there have been really unfortunate implementation problems, but I think they have fatal flaws at their core and are therefore bad ideas to start with. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/8 "2019-06-17T17:22:22Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > I’m not even sure I can agree with the premise. When I was growing up I remember hearing more than once, “At least Mussolini made the trains run on time.” [Even Snopes discussed it.](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/loco-motive/) > > As for Nazis, aka National Socialists, for a pop culture discussion of whether the idea itself is corrupt or the people who implemented it, I’d suggest watching the[Star Trek (original series) episode “Patterns of Force.”](https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Patterns_of_Force_(episode)) > > Similarly, it’s been debated for nearly a century whether the Soviet Union would have been better if the Mensheviks had succeeded Kerensky’s government rather than the Bolsheviks. How would the mensheviks being in charge be anything other than good compared to the bolsheviks? It seems they would’ve avoided all of the excesses and ineptitude of Stalin and their moderate policies would’ve worked better long term. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/9 "2019-06-17T17:44:13Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Law enforcement. Punishment. Putting the “good people” in charge and letting them make the decisions that the rest of us must obey. These all appear to be excellent ideas for which there have been really unfortunate implementation problems, but I think they have fatal flaws at their core and are therefore bad ideas to start with. But is there any alternative that isn’t worse? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/10 "2019-06-17T18:21:40Z")
The death penalty. I have no problem with executing monsters, but the way it is implemented in the US lets the guilty privileged escape the death penalty and the poor face it even if innocent. Better to have none at all than to execute the innocent. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/11 "2019-06-17T18:45:46Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The death penalty. I have no problem with executing monsters, but the way it is implemented in the US lets the guilty privileged escape the death penalty and the poor face it even if innocent. Better to have none at all than to execute the innocent. Lets rather say “the way it is implemented in Texas”. CA does it right. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/12 "2019-06-18T01:22:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Lets rather say “the way it is implemented in Texas”. CA does it right. We do it better. Gavin has more or less eliminated it for the moment, so if you are counting that as doing it right, I agree. I’d have to do a lot of research to be convinced we’ve done it right when we actually were executing people, though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/13 "2019-06-18T02:25:22Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > We do it better. Gavin has more or less eliminated it for the moment, so if you are counting that as doing it right, I agree. I’d have to do a lot of research to be convinced we’ve done it right when we actually were executing people, though. Well, only the worst of the worst are put on death row here. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/14 "2019-06-18T02:45:47Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > How would the mensheviks being in charge be anything other than good compared to the bolsheviks? It seems they would’ve avoided all of the excesses and ineptitude of Stalin and their moderate policies would’ve worked better long term. “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (Lord Acton) Who knows, maybe the Mensheviks would have found their own Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/15 "2019-06-18T03:12:17Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (Lord Acton) Who knows, maybe the Mensheviks would have found their own Stalin. There has never been a communist nation that wasnt autocratic and repressive. They go hand in hand. Communism doesnt work on a national scale. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/16 "2019-06-18T04:14:36Z")
There’s nothing inherently wrong with socialism. The basic idea is that some things are better off being provided by the government as a public service (and paid for by taxes) rather than through private entities that are seeking to generate profits. Good examples are public schools, police and fire departments, highways and bridges, mail delivery, and prisons. In many countries, you’d also have hospitals and clinics on the list. I feel that socialism doesn’t work as well when it comes to developing new forms of business and in sectors of the economy where customer choices are a key factor. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/17 "2019-06-18T14:34:40Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (Lord Acton) Who knows, maybe the Mensheviks would have found their own Stalin. That’s possible, but things got better in the ussr after Stalin died just as they got better in China after Mao was gone. Not perfect but one person can fuck a lot of things up even in an autocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/18 "2019-06-18T15:17:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, only the worst of the worst are put on death row here. Or, perhaps, the poorest of the worst. The DP is one of those potentially good ideas that is so difficult to manage in a non-discriminatory way one has to wonder if it’s just a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/19 "2019-06-19T15:07:30Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > The death penalty. I have no problem with executing monsters, but the way it is implemented in the US lets the guilty privileged escape the death penalty and the poor face it even if innocent. Better to have none at all than to execute the innocent. Or how about, in the name of avoiding cruel and unusual punishment, going out of their way to make sure it is both. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2019, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645/20 "2019-06-19T15:12:05Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” (Lord Acton) Who knows, maybe the Mensheviks would have found their own Stalin. It is not that power corrupts but that it attracts the corruptible - Frank Herbert [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-ideas-that-are-bad-versus-good-ideas-that-are-were-poorly-executed/835645.md?page=2)