# Bad Lease Deal = Elder Abuse? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 7, 2015, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205 "2015-08-07T02:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/21 "2015-08-07T04:54:12Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Tell them “we’ll see you in court. > But before that, we’ll see you in news media all over the city/state, we’ll see you in the State Attorney General’s office, we’ll see you as the local seniors group pickets in front of your dealership with their canes & walkers, we’ll see you on facebook, etc.” That’s what I’m thinking. I can’t imagine that they would try and make her keep the car, after less than 24 hours, if she’s pissed. Do dealerships do that with brand new cars? Wouldn’t Toyota Corp step in and let her out? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/22 "2015-08-07T05:03:55Z")
One thing you may be missing in this is that the 2wd version of popular SUV 4wd vehicle like the RAV 4 may suffer from lagging popularity and thus be a great candidate for a discounted lease deal to move them off the lot. 4WD sport utilities are more quite a bit more popular, more expensive and often come bundled with more expensive accessory packages than the cheaper 2wd versions. How long ago did she do this deal? There are sometimes state mandated short rescission time windows (a day or three) in most car leases where the person can walk away. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Anconia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@D\_Anconia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Anconia)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/23 "2015-08-07T05:34:55Z")
> [@SeaDragonTattoo](#): > > Check your state laws, see if you have a 3-day cancellation law in place. In Illinois, you can completely back out of a car deal within three days, like it never happened. Your state may not, but it’s worth it to check. Cite, please. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/24 "2015-08-07T05:34:55Z")
> [@astro](#): > > One thing you may be missing in this is that the 2wd version of popular SUV 4wd vehicle like the RAV 4 may suffer from lagging popularity and thus be a great candidate for a discounted lease deal to move them off the lot. 4WD sport utilities are more quite a bit more popular, more expensive and often come bundled with more expensive accessory packages than the cheaper 2wd versions. > > How long ago did she do this deal? There are sometimes state mandated short rescission time windows (a day or three) in most car leases where the person can walk away. I am well aware that she leased a more expensive car than the advertised deal. I’m asking if in other people’s experience $459 a month for 36 months/36,000 miles sounds reasonable to anyone for a RAV4. As I wrote in the OP, she did this today (well, yesterday cause it’s 1:34 am here in Michigan, where we have no rescission laws.) ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/25 "2015-08-07T05:48:20Z")
> [@D\_Anconia](#): > > Cite, please. In Illinois, the Three-Day-Right-to-Cancel Law does not apply to the purchase of an automobile. [http://www.ag.state.il.us/consumers/auto.html](http://www.ag.state.il.us/consumers/auto.html) ---
**Author:** ![Jorge\_Burrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Jorge\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/26 "2015-08-07T07:03:12Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Not according to them, as far as paying on the Camry. They did her the “favor” of just canceling it. (At $459 a month for two years, she paid for what a reasonable lease would have been for 3 years, plus the car’s resale is higher now than it will be in a year and with 15,000 more miles on it.) > > Repairs are completely covered by insurance. She did THEM a favor by bringing it to them, not the other way around. They don’t do “favors” like that. The cost of the extra year on the lease is either directly (as in its in the financial paperwork) or indirectly wrapped up in her new monthly payment (not directly in the paperwork, but it is why they aren’t giving her the rate on the website). So basically we have $199 on website + $60/month since she put nothing down + 153/month left over from her previous lease spread over 3 years = 412/month. Her payment seems in line with what is on the website considering all the circumstances you failed to include in the original post (arguably she may be even getting a deal depending on the exact model). Leases are almost never an actual good deal and 95% of the time you are getting screwed on them, so yes she got a bad deal, but no more than any one else that leases from what I can tell. The best thing she could do is stick it out with the also not so good Camry lease and then start afresh a year from now. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/27 "2015-08-07T07:28:05Z")
> [@Jorge\_Burrito](#): > > They don’t do “favors” like that. The cost of the extra year on the lease is either directly (as in its in the financial paperwork) or indirectly wrapped up in her new monthly payment (not directly in the paperwork, but it is why they aren’t giving her the rate on the website). So basically we have $199 on website + $60/month since she put nothing down + 153/month left over from her previous lease spread over 3 years = 412/month. Her payment seems in line with what is on the website considering all the circumstances you failed to include in the original post (arguably she may be even getting a deal depending on the exact model). > > Leases are almost never an actual good deal and 95% of the time you are getting screwed on them, so yes she got a bad deal, but no more than any one else that leases from what I can tell. > The best thing she could do is stick it out with the also not so good Camry lease and then start afresh a year from now. That’s why it’s a scam; they claimed they DO do favors like that; that they canceled the old lease, not rolled it into the new one. If they had said it would cost $5000 to end the old lease, she never would have done it. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/28 "2015-08-07T10:46:44Z")
I know a guy who was served with divorce papers a short time after selling his own mother in law a car. He thought he was being subtle, but his wife looked over the paperwork and was pissed. That’s how they roll (IME). ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/29 "2015-08-07T12:10:34Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Not according to them, as far as paying on the Camry. They did her the “favor” of just canceling it. (At $459 a month for two years, she paid for what a reasonable lease would have been for 3 years, plus the car’s resale is higher now than it will be in a year and with 15,000 more miles on it.) > > Repairs are completely covered by insurance. She did THEM a favor by bringing it to them, not the other way around. They didn’t cancel it, they loaned her the money so she could buy her way out of the the old car. I’ve ‘pulled ahead’ on a few cars, but only when there’s been one or two payments left. I’ve always been very careful to ask ‘are you rolling that last payment into the my new car or are you making the last payment for me?’. If they say that they’re rolling it into the new car, I’ll either have them change it or I’ll walk (to a new dealership, to wait a month and come back or just to see if they change the terms), but usually they say “we’re going to write you a check for the last payment that you’ll send in to them, you’re not paying anymore for the car.” But we’re talking about a few hundred dollars, not $5000, that’s an awful lot of money to expect a dealership to absorb just to get you into a new lease. > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Tell them “we’ll see you in court. > But before that, we’ll see you in news media all over the city/state, we’ll see you in the State Attorney General’s office, we’ll see you as the local seniors group pickets in front of your dealership with their canes & walkers, we’ll see you on facebook, etc.” For what? It’s not fair to bash a business for doing nothing wrong at all. Just because she didn’t understand what she signed doesn’t mean it’s their fault. Hell, the OP didn’t even give us the details properly, it wasn’t until 27 posts in that he told us his mom still owed $5000 on her old car. There’s always two sides to a story and I think we’re missing most of both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/30 "2015-08-07T12:15:13Z")
Back to what I was saying earlier, you need to look at her paperwork. I’ll bet if you take a look at her most recent lease statement for the camery and see what she still owes on it (payment X payments remaining), that number, or something close to it, is on the new lease statement. It probably adds to the total she has to pay for the car over the life of the lease. A few hundred dollars they can make disappear, but $5k, probably not. You have to remember, with that much left on the lease, they’re not worried about her going anywhere. Once there’s just a few months left, they’ll ‘pull you ahead’ for free (actually for free) because that’s when they’re worried about you going to another manufacturer. It’s the same reason you can get a new cell phone, from the same carrier, at 20 months, even though the contract is for 24 months. ---
**Author:** ![RagingxMarmoset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@RagingxMarmoset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RagingxMarmoset)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/31 "2015-08-07T13:49:02Z")
So, zero down on a mid level (from what I can gather) trim Rav4 and rolling $5000 in from the old lease? $459 sounds about right. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/32 "2015-08-07T14:00:44Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Yes, it’s a lease. Yes, she has perfect credit. I was hoping someone would come on here and say, “I just signed the same, or similar, deal. It’s fair.” No one has said that. > > Yes, I’m speculating. But I don’t think I’m out of line. Something stinks. A friend just leased a mid-trim, AWD Nissan Rogue (similar class/price point as RAV4) for a little over $200 a month, but with out any extraneous stuff like turning in the old lease early. I think the MSRP on hers was around $26k. Price difference between AWD and FWD is $1400 on the RAV4. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/33 "2015-08-07T14:07:57Z")
It’s not a very good deal - in fact, it’s a terrible deal - but it’s not “unconscionable” or “abuse.” ---
**Author:** ![AnaMen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dfb087/32.png) [@AnaMen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AnaMen)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/34 "2015-08-07T14:22:11Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Yes, she wants help now. Yes, I think she got screwed. That’s why I posted this. If you think she made a great bargain, I’m asking for your opinion. Do you think this sounds like a good, or even reasonable, deal? I think leases are practically always bad deals, but I’d have to really look at the terms of the lease to judge it. You’re trying to compare two leases with only a few of the relevant details, which are different enough to make them incomparable anyway. If she wants a lower payment, maybe she should look at other cars. If she is set on that car, check with another dealer. You may even be able to renegotiate a different arrangement with this dealer, where she makes a down payment and gets lower monthly payments. This would help you compare the deal with the one you saw advertised. You should check the lease carefully to see what maintenance is required, where it must be done, and who is responsible for the cost. Check for penalties for going over on the mileage and insurance requirements. Don’t ask the salesperson and accept their verbal answer–they are typically poorly informed and/or liars, so refer only to the written provisions of the lease itself. If she is easy on cars and has good credit, purchasing a low-mileage used car with a warranty and selling it when that warranty runs out, may be a better financial choice for her. Leases can leave you owing the dealer money and you have no car to trade in, or you can try to cut your losses by buying the car, which you probably don’t want. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/35 "2015-08-07T14:23:49Z")
Agree that there’s no way that this should be called “elder abuse” but I’m curious; what sort of repairs does a two-year-old Camry need? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/36 "2015-08-07T14:26:32Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > They didn’t cancel it, they loaned her the money so she could buy her way out of the the old car. I’ve ‘pulled ahead’ on a few cars, but only when there’s been one or two payments left. I’ve always been very careful to ask ‘are you rolling that last payment into the my new car or are you making the last payment for me?’. If they say that they’re rolling it into the new car, I’ll either have them change it or I’ll walk (to a new dealership, to wait a month and come back or just to see if they change the terms), but usually they say “we’re going to write you a check for the last payment that you’ll send in to them, you’re not paying anymore for the car.” But we’re talking about a few hundred dollars, not $5000, that’s an awful lot of money to expect a dealership to absorb just to get you into a new lease. > For what? It’s not fair to bash a business for doing nothing wrong at all. Just because she didn’t understand what she signed doesn’t mean it’s their fault. Hell, the OP didn’t even give us the details properly, it wasn’t until 27 posts in that he told us his mom still owed $5000 on her old car. > > There’s always two sides to a story and I think we’re missing most of both sides. I’m not deliberately hiding anything. She’s paid $12,000 to drive a Camry for 2 years. The dealership canceled that, they said, and took their car back. She doesn’t “owe” any more money and they don’t “owe” her any more use of the car. No money from the old lease is listed on the new one. If she’s still expected to pay something on that, she should be told. If her lease is higher than what someone else would get, because they absorbed a huge loss from ending the old lease, she should be told that, too. I’ll know more in a couple hours. ---
**Author:** ![RagingxMarmoset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@RagingxMarmoset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RagingxMarmoset)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/37 "2015-08-07T15:11:26Z")
The money is in there somewhere. What is her lease rate? The advertised rate might be 1.5 but they marked it up to 6 or something stupid. ---
**Author:** ![FasterThanMeerkats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/278dde/32.png) [@FasterThanMeerkats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FasterThanMeerkats)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/38 "2015-08-07T15:19:40Z")
You can always offer to call the local paper and give them a good local interest story and let them decide whether your mother was treated fairly. Dealerships don’t like to be the focus of negative press and some journalist would be happy for a chance to do some good for the community. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/39 "2015-08-07T15:34:49Z")
Like folk have said, people of all ages make lousy deals at all ages, car salesmen don’t have the best of reps, and car purchase/lease terms can be complicated. I don’t understand, if she didn’t ask your assistance ahead of time, why are you getting involved now? Sure, try to help her get out of this contract if she wants to, but unless she is declared incompetent, just be happy if she has enough resources to cover the contractual obligations she incurs. Senior abuse is very real, but it isn’t an excuse if you just happen to be old and do something stupid. If you are incompetent to enter into a contract, what other aspects of independent functioning ought you give up? My MIL has diagnosed vascular dementia. Her daughters persuaded her to allow them handle her finances without her legally being declared incompetent. Afterwards, they discovered she had recently been donating significant amounts to countless “charities.” Basically, she would cut a check in response to any unsolicited bulkmail solicitation, with no recollection of doing so afterwards. Maybe she was very generous, or simply a very easy touch. IMO it is a short step from such solicitations to someone offering specious insurance/home repair/etc. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2015, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205/40 "2015-08-07T15:59:50Z")
I’ll add myself to the what they did is probably legal but sleazy bucket. Probably everything, including each option was calculated at MSRP which also can add a few bucks a month to the cost. Please come back & update with more details once you know them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-lease-deal-elder-abuse/727205.md?page=3)