# "bad news bears" scoring question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 27, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940 "2003-08-27T10:25:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![nineiron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e56c9b/32.png) [@nineiron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nineiron)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/1 "2003-08-27T10:25:00Z")
My brother, my father, and I were talking this past weekend, and somehow the topic of the movie “The Bad News Bears” came up. We got to talking about one unusual play, and we wondered how this play would be scored officially. The play, in case you haven’t seen the movie–and even if you have–went like this: The Bears were playing their arch-rivals, the Yankees. The Yankees’ pitcher was also the coach’s son. After one close pitch to the Bears’ batter, a rather large boy named Engelbert, the coach came out to the mound and yelled at, then hit, his son. The son was obviously angered and embarrassed by this. During the same at-bat, Engelbert grounded the ball back to this pitcher. To get some sort of revenge on his father, though, the pitcher merely held onto the ball, not throwing it to first base. In fact, he held onto it for a good minute or two, despite his teammates’ trying to get it away from him, allowing Engelbert to rumble all the way around the bases and score. So how would this play be scored? We have three ideas: 1. Home run. I find this choice unlikely. 2. Fielder’s choice, as the pitcher chose not to throw the ball. 3. Four-base error, as a sort of “mental error.” So, baseball scoring experts, which would it be? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/2 "2003-08-27T11:23:10Z")
Another possibility is that it was scored as a hit and three stolen bases. ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/3 "2003-08-27T11:49:41Z")
Hm, great question. I’d go with the four-base error. 🙂 Not saying that’s the correct way to score it, but I’d do it. ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/4 "2003-08-27T17:53:44Z")
Easy–it’s a four-base error: the runner advanced four bases on a play in which he should not have advanced at all. _E-1_. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/5 "2003-08-27T21:11:38Z")
I don’t know much about baseball, but why shouldn’tthe batter have taken the bases. It was a grounder, so it wasn’t an automatic out having been caught. Since the pitcher didn’t do his job, didn’t throw to the first baseman, why shouldn’t the runner continue? Also, would the coach/father get kicked out of the game for hitting a player, even (or especially( if the player was his son? StG ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/6 "2003-08-27T21:23:24Z")
> [@](#): > > [Unofficial Rules of Little League Baseball](http://www.ballardll.net/rules/Baseball_Rules.html) (bolding mine) > FIELDER’S CHOICE is the act of a fielder who handles a fair grounder and, instead of throwing it to first base to put out the batter-runner, throws to another base in an attempt to put out a preceding runner. The term is also used by scorers (a) to account for the advance of the batter-runner who takes one or more extra bases when the fielder who handles the safe hit attempts to put out a preceding runner; (b) to account for the advance of a runner (other than by stolen base or error) while a fielder is attempting to put out another runner; and **© to account for the advance of a runner made solely because of the defensive team’s indifference. (Undefended steal)**. That certainly fits the case here. ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/7 "2003-08-27T21:56:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > \*\*That certainly fits the case here. \*\* Defensive indifference occurs when the team in the field chooses not to attempt to put out a runner because whether or not the runner advances has no bearing on the outcome of the game. This is not the case in the scenario under discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/8 "2003-08-27T22:28:24Z")
First off, it’s not an error. An error only counts as an accidental misplay - fumbling the ball, a wild throw, whatever. Deliberately holding onto the ball too long is not an error. It would be scored a home run. There was no error and the player rounded the bases. A fielder’s choice would only be a possibility if they tried to get a preceding runner out. They didn’t. It’s a home run. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/9 "2003-08-27T23:12:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rmbnxs \* > \*\*Defensive indifference occurs when the team in the field chooses not to attempt to put out a runner because whether or not the runner advances has no bearing on the outcome of the game. \*\* Not necessarily. > [@](#): > > [South Coast Today](http://www.s-t.com/daily/04-96/04-27-96/1sox.htm) > BOSTON – When the two teams with the worst records in the majors get together, a little thing like defensive indifference can make a big difference. > The Kansas City Royals extended Roger Clemens’ worst start ever, keeping the Red Sox ace winless Friday night with a 4-3 victory over Boston. > > Leading 3-1 in the ninth inning, the Royals had Jose Offerman on second base with two outs. Offerman easily moved to third when Boston catcher Mike Stanley didn’t attempt a throw, a play that was ruled indifference instead of a stolen bases. **Neurotik** : fielders’ choice does not always have to involve an out, as indicted in the definition I provided earlier. ---
**Author:** ![rmbnxs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9e5f3/32.png) [@rmbnxs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rmbnxs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/10 "2003-08-27T23:39:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeff Olsen \* > \*\*Not necessarily. **Neurotik** : fielders’ choice does not always have to involve an out, as indicted in the definition I provided earlier. \*\* The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that different scorers might score this differently. The difference may lie in whether or not a scorer judges that, at the time of the play, the runner’s advance had an immediate bearing on the result of the game. Clearly, whether or not a runner’s advance has a bearing on the result of the game will always depend on whether further runs are scored or not: what is relevant is the judgment of the scorer at the time of the play itself. You may be right. If nothing else, it may be that different scorers would score the play differently. But this certainly is not a homerun, since the run is not earned. No scorer would choose to allow such a run to count against the pitcher, even if the pitcher is the one holding the ball, since the runner’s advances and the scored run are not the result of the pitcher _qua_ pitcher. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/11 "2003-08-30T04:04:11Z")
I recall a case in the Majors a couple years ago when a player (the pitcher?) held onto the ball to argue a call with an umpire about a runner being safe. The runner continued to move around the bases and scored. It was ruled “defensive indifference”. Can anybody recall more and do a Google? (I can’t think of a term to narrow it down from mundane scoring.) So I suspect a similar ruling in TBNB would be the same. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-news-bears-scoring-question/197940/12 "2003-08-30T04:21:00Z")
1. It is not an error. Rule 10.13(1) clearly states that slow handling of a ball without misplay is not an error. 2. It is not a fielder’s choice, as the fielder is not choosing to make another play, nor is this defensive indifference. Defensive indifference is when _it doesn’t matter to the defense what happens._ In this case it does matter to the defense what happens, even if they have a traitor on the field. The proper scoring call is “home run.” I personally think it SHOULD be an error, but the rule is quite clear.