# Bad precedent **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [April 9, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594 "2010-04-09T23:45:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/101 "2010-04-11T22:03:53Z")
> [@Alice\_The\_Goon](#): > > I have to agree with everything said above. Everything? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@Sleeps\_With\_Butterflies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sleeps_With_Butterflies)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/102 "2010-04-11T22:07:08Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You perceive a staff that is not receptive to criticism. I see a staff that fields so much criticism–much of it over the top and lot of it from the same few posters–that an attitude is growing that even when we actually decide to change a ruling we are reluctant to feed into the sense of celebration that some posters exhibit. > > I’d like to see both sides back off, but when every “question” becomes an accusation and when even a change to a Mod’s decision becomes a basis of more accusations, I am not sure that I see it happening, soon. Am I reading this right? You’re reluctant to do the right thing because you think it might cause a sense of celebration by some posters? Really? ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/103 "2010-04-11T22:11:46Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > …even when we actually decide to change a ruling we are reluctant to feed into the sense of celebration that some posters exhibit. Do it for the warm fuzzy you get from doing something good. > [@](#): > > I’d like to see both sides back off, but when every “question” becomes an accusation and when even a change to a Mod’s decision becomes a basis of more accusations, I am not sure that I see it happening, soon. A tip might be, when apologizing, don’t randomly drop “fucking” into your sentences. If you do, both your sincerity and your concern could be doubted. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/104 "2010-04-11T22:23:10Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You will note that, your mischaracterization of my posts notwithstanding, I was responding to a specific statement by a poster that he would not follow a Mod’s instructions unless there was an explicit rule in place. Although I’m sure it’s fun to make stuff up, that’s not actually what I said. I said I wouldn’t follow " mod instructions for made-up rules." So, yeah–I suppose if you want to preemptively ban me for that, you can feel free to. I understand I threatened your authoritah, but…shrug, I can live with that. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/105 "2010-04-11T22:25:42Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I doubt that your interpretation is correct. The specific issue of Twickster’s first statement to **devlisknew** was discussed among the staff and the consensus was pretty clear that she had gone beyond what she needed to do. On the other hand, the discussion was rather prolonged by discussing the vituperative attacks launched against her and the rest of the staff. Why was the discussion prolonged? Surely all you had to decide was whether or not she did the right thing. You say that “consensus was pretty clear that she had gone beyond what she needed to do,” so why wasn’t the ruling changed as soon as that decision was made? The prolonging of the discussion was, as far as i can tell, completely unnecessary because it was unrelated to the actual complaint made by the OP of this thread. The question of “vituperative attacks” is a completely different issue. Many (in fact, most) of the complaints on the first page of this thread are not at all vituperative, nor are they attacks. If you see something that is out of line for ATMB, then give a warning about it; if the post does not deserve a warning, then it is, by definition, acceptable. Complaining about it now, and using it to justify your “prolonged” discussion, seems like a case of shooting the messenger. > [@tomndebb](#): > > You perceive a staff that is not receptive to criticism. I see a staff that fields so much criticism–much of it over the top and lot of it from the same few posters–that an attitude is growing that even when we actually decide to change a ruling we are reluctant to feed into the sense of celebration that some posters exhibit. In this particular instance, even posters who have been defending the staff in recent ATMB threads were dumbfounded by **twickster** ’s ruling, and said so. Also, your concern about “feed[ing] into the sense of celebration” should be irrelevant to the issue of moderating these boards. When a court is deliberating about whether or not to overturn a previous ruling, it is deciding whether or not the law has been followed; it is not (and should not be) guided in its deliberation by whether the victorious party will engage in celebration at the ruling. As **SoulFrost** suggests, if a ruling needs to be changed, then change it because it’s the right thing to do. > [@tomndebb](#): > > I’d like to see both sides back off, but when every “question” becomes an accusation and when even a change to a Mod’s decision becomes a basis of more accusations, I am not sure that I see it happening, soon. So, you say you’d like to see both sides back off, but you still seem to place the blame wholly at the feet of those who complain. You say that “every ‘question’ becomes an accusation.” This is a statement about the people doing the complaining. But what about the people receiving the complaints? It seems to me that, in many cases, even genuine questions are _treated like_ accusations by the moderators and admins on this board. While we may never trace the original seed of this disconnect, it seems to me that it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that moderator defensiveness is purely a result of member belligerence, without also conceding that member belligerence could also be a function of moderator defensiveness. ---
**Author:** ![Alice\_The\_Goon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Alice\_The\_Goon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alice_The_Goon)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/106 "2010-04-11T22:27:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Everything? 🙂 I know it’s confusing when the whole entire post is not quoted, every time, but yeah, everything. 😉 This whole thing just leaves a bad taste in my mouth, from the original complaint to the fucking apology. What’s that sound? Oh, it’s my pocketbook slamming shut. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/107 "2010-04-11T22:30:13Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So this is less about genuine concern about how the board is run, and more about getting in first with the shots? Why would it make any difference if this were true? 😕 People aren’t allowed to come in and make comments on an ongoing discussion, even if it is to score points? Here’s my take (if anyone cares, which isn’t likely): **Twickster** overreacted to the “C” word (I’m not about to use it because I don’t want my first warning–do you all see how silly this gets?), then slapped a poster down for not “obeying”. This caused other posters to ask WTF? in here. And then the games began–don’t like what’s said? Warning! And one for you, and one for you and another one for… I don’t doubt that modding is only slightly less fun than root canal and that you all get a lot of shit for no good reason at times. I am also sure that you tire of the picayune hair splitting that some posters do, and that you all make mistakes. But surely there is no reason to NOT change a decision or policy solely because of a possible perceived loss of face or unseemly “celebrating” on the part of some posters? That makes no sense to me, but then, the warnings in this thread make no sense to me, either. They don’t have to–I am merely a frequent poster and all around American Beauty/Soccer Mom/Apple Pie Maker etc. Mine is not to question why, mine is but to post or die? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/108 "2010-04-11T22:43:03Z")
The modding by **twickster** being discussed in this thread was horrible. But that’s life, shit happens, we all screw up from time to time. But the failure of the admins to overturn that decision and warning because **twickster** was unavailable is also horrible. This was a no-brainer. “It was wrong, it’s corrected, we’re sorry.” ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/109 "2010-04-11T22:44:08Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > If you do, both your sincerity and your concern could be doubted. Problem is, I suspect the mods would have their own concerns about “sincerity”. I have already posted saying Twicksters actions were a load of bollocks. But because the usual suspects (and fuck yes there are usual suspects) have found another length of rope to hang the mods, the mods in turn have become increasingly belligerant towards them. Its obvious I sympathise to some extent. We are at a point where there is ZERO chance of any reasonable discussion in ATMB. Ellis Dee posts a very valid complaint. A year ago the warning would probably been rescinded within a day, but now, the thread gets hijacked and fed-up mods act a lot more dickish than they once would have. Well done everybody. Not sure why I am typing this, the mods are pissed off beyond listening, and those on their crusade to have half the mods sacked don’t give a flying fuck. Hell, I’m from Northern Ireland, you think I would be used to two sides not talking to each other. I think I just wish everybody would take a step back, and realise that we are ALL a cause of it, not just the other side. Fuck it, do what yous like. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/110 "2010-04-11T22:50:46Z")
Missed edit window. One last thing. A note to ED. You should have left the fucking pit the way it was. Thats the one thing in all this that is obvious, and all this shit stems from that. You happy? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/111 "2010-04-11T23:15:41Z")
> [@SoulFrost](#): > > A tip might be, when apologizing, don’t randomly drop “fucking” into your sentences. If you do, both your sincerity and your concern could be doubted. Especially if you (general you, directed at the mods in general) are going to warn members for doing the same thing in the same thread. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/112 "2010-04-11T23:16:53Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > **Moderator Warning** > > Personal attacks are not permitted in ATMB. Cite? Personal **insults** are not permitted on these boards. There is nothing in the rules that specify anything about “personal attacks”. Your interpretation is too vague. A personal insult is easily spotted: “you’re a fucking moron” or “you’re a cocksucking cunt”. Your interpretation of personal attack is relying on interpreting the tone of a post, in this case some sort of antagonism. I don’t doubt for a second that the post was antagonistic - but are you honestly suggesting we can no longer be antagonistic? That specific antagonistic tone, originally set forth by Cecil Adams’ writing style, is the whole friggin’ genesis of this board! ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/113 "2010-04-11T23:30:06Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Although I’m sure it’s fun to make stuff up, that’s not actually what I said. > > I said I wouldn’t follow " mod instructions for made-up rules." > > So, yeah–I suppose if you want to preemptively ban me for that, you can feel free to. I understand I threatened your authoritah, but…shrug, I can live with that. And what “rule” that is not posted in the Registration Agreement or one of the Forum rules would you agree was not “made up”? You are claiming a difference without a distinction. There are any number of cases where posters are told to refrain from engaging in hostile behavior that do not come under the rubric of posted rules. They are often necessary to prevent trainwrecks, hijacks, flame wars, etc. I suspect that something we say to prevent those bad things are going to be perceived by someone as made up rules. You making a big deal that my response to you did not echo your exact words, (with a strong implication that I was lying), is a typical example of that sort of disagreement. The reality is that this is a forum to challenge such “rules” while your declaration that you will not follow anything that you consider “made up” is simply a way to place yourself outside the jurisdiction of the staff. ---
**Author:** ![Bearflag70](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/114 "2010-04-11T23:30:08Z")
Holy hell, this thread is a disaster! Bad mod decisions are being heaped upon bad mod decisions. Some mods need to take a step back, a deep breath even, take an ego check, politely rescind all the warnings at issue here, and stop digging the hole. I respect the fact that the mod job isn’t always easy and peachy and appreciate the fact you stepped up to take an often thankless job, but put the mod hammer down for a sec, stop and read the reasoned member posts here, and do the right thing. (HINT: Sticking to your guns is not right thing.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/115 "2010-04-11T23:31:34Z")
BTW, > [@Fenris](#): > > So, yeah–I suppose if you want to preemptively ban me for that, you can feel free to. I understand I threatened your authoritah, but…shrug, I can live with that. No one has threatened to preemptively ban you, so this sort of “making things up” is pretty silly. ---
**Author:** ![SoulFrost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f07891/32.png) [@SoulFrost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulFrost)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/116 "2010-04-11T23:35:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And what “rule” that is not posted in the Registration Agreement or one of the Forum rules would you agree was not “made up”? > > You are claiming a difference without a distinction. There are any number of cases where posters are told to refrain from engaging in hostile behavior that do not come under the rubric of posted rules. They are often necessary to prevent trainwrecks, hijacks, flame wars, etc. > > I suspect that something we say to prevent those bad things are going to be perceived by someone as made up rules. You making a big deal that my response to you did not echo your exact words, (with a strong implication that I was lying), is a typical example of that sort of disagreement. The reality is that this is a forum to challenge such “rules” while your declaration that you will not follow anything that you consider “made up” is simply a way to place yourself outside the jurisdiction of the staff. I think this covers it: > [@twickster](#): > > **A lot of people, including myself, find the word “cunt” incredibly offensive.** Its use is not allowed in the Pit as an insult against another Doper. **Your usage here isn’t against the rules per se, but given that we’re not in the Pit, it’s completely inappropriate.** Please make an effort to keep your audience in mind with your word choices. > > twickster, Cafe Society moderator Bolding mine, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/117 "2010-04-11T23:56:12Z")
> [@Bearflag70](#): > > Bad mod decisions are being heaped upon bad mod decisions. It’s hilarious. Almost like they are just fucking with us, now. By the way, I found Twixter’s apology very nicely said. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/118 "2010-04-12T00:02:34Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > And what “rule” that is not posted in the Registration Agreement or one of the Forum rules would you agree was not “made up”? Nah…even though your mod hat isn’t on, I’m not about to get into one of your endlessly recursive discussions about the definition of the nuance of the penumbra of a word or a phrase. My meaning was clear. If you didn’t get it, perhaps you can have someone explain it to you. > [@](#): > > You are claiming a difference without a distinction. There are any number of cases where posters are told to refrain from engaging in hostile behavior that do not come under the rubric of posted rules. They are often necessary to prevent trainwrecks, hijacks, flame wars, etc. One person’s “trainwreck” and “hijack” is another person’s open discussion. Nonetheless, stopping trainwrecks is part of a mod’s purview. Being a censorious bluenose who’s desperately trying to show the size of her (metaphorical) penis by retroactively deciding certain words are suddenly not acceptable in forums and in ways they they always have been _isn’t_. > [@](#): > > I suspect that something we say to prevent those bad things are going to be perceived by someone as made up rules. You making a big deal that my response to you did not echo your exact words, (with a strong implication that I was lying), is a typical example of that sort of disagreement. The reality is that this is a forum to challenge such “rules” while your declaration that you will not follow anything that you consider “made up” is simply a way to place yourself outside the jurisdiction of the staff. A fun thought, but one not borne by the evidence. Other than the tiff you and I had a while back, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten into a serious fight with a mod, and certainly never over my own behavior which has never even skirted the line. And (again excluding your modding in the thread that led to that), I’ve never been warned, never been mod-noted and generally (despite being a pain in the ass) get along with most of the mods. So…yeah…you can choose to say that “Fenris is just looking for a way to place himself outside the rules”, but given the clear evidence of my rule abiding nature, your accusation is clearly wrong and more evidence that your posts indicate butthurtedness that I’m not kowtowing to your authoritah. If a mod tells me to do something within the rules, no prob, I’ll agree. If a mod tells me to put a paper bag over my head and cluck like a chicken, I won’t do it and let the chips fall where they may. Twickster’s idiotic modding in this instance fell into the latter category. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/119 "2010-04-12T00:07:54Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > BTW,No one has threatened to preemptively ban you, so this sort of “making things up” is pretty silly. Perhaps you can get someone to translate the words in my post into words you understand. I said "I suppose if you want to preemptively ban me for that, you can feel free to. " “Wanting to” is not the same as “threatening”. For instance, there are many things that I am prohibited from saying in this forum and in the pit by dint of your mod status. The fact that I _want_ to say them doesn’t mean that I’m threatening to. Especially since saying them would get me banned. Do you see the difference or should I explain it again? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594/120 "2010-04-12T00:11:25Z")
Just on a casual reading of recent posts in this thread, it appears that some people didn’t notice that **Twickster** rescinded the warning and apologized. > [@Zoe](#): > > But now that I see that it can lead to censorship and even a warning just because it “bothers” some people, I am _much_ more offended by the censorship, the on-the-fly rule change, and the resultant unfairness of the warning. I explained this one already. Issuing instructions, requests, comments, or mod notes does _not_ constitute the creation of a new rule. If I say, “Hey, **Zoe** , stop bringing up abortion in this thread–the thread’s about apple pie recipes,” I have not created a new rule forbidding all discussion of abortion. I’ve just stopped the discussion about it in one particular thread. Yes, **Twickster** made it sound more like a rule than that, but we’ve dealt with that now. > [@Sierra\_Indigo](#): > > [QUOTE=Gary “Wombat” Robson] > But there seems to be a core group of people who demand the right to any offensive words they wish any time they wish. It is NOT about this at all and I wish the modmins around here would stop misrepresenting the posting body in this way. [/QUOTE] Please note that the paragraph you were responding to started with the word, “Personally.” I was NOT speaking as a moderator. I’m not misrepresenting anybody, because all I did was make a personal observation that a lot of people really, really seem to want to say “cunt.” It seems to be horribly important to them. I don’t understand why. Becoming a moderator doesn’t deprive me of the right to hold an opinion and make observations. > [@Sapo](#): > > [QUOTE=Gary “Wombat” Robson] > … would NOT change our desire that thread titles outside the Pit be kept SFW… Then make it a rule and sticky it. This has been discussed several times and I agree with the general idea but I don’t think it has been enshrined in law. This is the kind of stuff that even the most goody two shoes could easily trip on. You don’t need to be a troll to feel like saying shit every once in a while. Or maybe it is a rule and I haven’t been paying attention. Is it? [/QUOTE] It’s not a rule. As I said, it’s our desire. It’s a request. People read the forums at work a lot, and it doesn’t look professional to have a screen full of invective when the boss or a coworker walks by. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bad-precedent/535594.md?page=7)