# BadChad, a moment of your time, if you can spare it **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 18, 2006, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158 "2006-09-18T12:14:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 41
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/801 "2006-09-23T04:46:02Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Let’s just say they’re all necessarily ahistorical. It is not possble that impossible events have ever happened. You don’t actually think Biblical claims of miracles are “evidence” of anything do you? If you do, then you really don’t have any grasp of what that word means. Do you think that Homeric accounts of supernatural events are evidence for Zeus? Can you articulate any rational basis for affording Bible stories any more literal, historical plausibility than the Epic of Gilgamesh or the _Mahabharata_? [/QUOTE] Ah, the parsing of logic. We have a definite problem here, **Dio**. Remember “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? If you choose to define “miracle” as “something inherently impossible that it is claimed has happened,” then you will get unanimous consent, from **Friar Ted** to **Der Trihs** , that you’re right. Unfortunately, that’s not what Christian theology means by “miracle,” and you damn well ought to know it. A miracle is a highly improbable event that it is claimed happened as a sign of some attribute of God, e.g., the feeding of the 5000 as his providence and as foretaste of the Eucharist and the supposed Heavenly Banquet. I’ve noted before that the writers are at pains never to actually **say** that Jesus miraculously multiplied the loaves and fishes, only that, as he took and blessed five loaves and two fish, enough food became present for 5000 to eat their fill. That he may have used the example of the boy’s generosity to shame people in the crowd who had in fact brought food to share, is not ruled out by the Bible text. As we both know, there is a lot of material in the Scriptures that constitutes “highly improbable,” and I don’t believe anyone is under obligation to take the vast majority of it with a straight face. In fact, probably more than a little of it is rabbinic haggadah or the early-Christian equivalent, never **intended** to be taken literally. And “evidence” is not confined to Scripture. Joan of Arc, Lourdes, personal testimonies by a wide range of people, myself among them… they’re “evidence.” What degree of credulity or skepticism you bring to their evaluation is necessarily an individual judgment, about which, IMO, _de gustibus non est disputandum_. But the claim that “there is no evidence” is at best handwaving. You may consider the evidence shitful, on a par with flying-saucer accounts. That’s your privilege. You may feel that there is absolutely no such thing as predictive prophecy (and you may be right) – meaning that every instance of such reported in Scripture was back-written after the fact, attributing it to Jesus or an apostle or prophet some decades in the writer’s past. Again, your privilege. However, there’s a bit of self-serving fraudulent analysis in that – circular reasoning: “Every instance of predictive prophecy in Scripture was written after the fact and attributed back to a prophet. We know this because of the dates those books were written. But one of the main reasons for dating those books as we do is that they contain clear predictions of things that had not yet happened as of the time they were supposed to be describing, and had to be written after the fact. We’re certain of this last statement because predictive prophecy does not exist.” ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/802 "2006-09-23T09:38:42Z")
[QUOTE=Grant the Giant] faithfool, what the fuck are you talking about? [/QUOTE] Have you actually read the OP? Or the rest of the thread? Educate yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/803 "2006-09-23T11:14:36Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] [Mu](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=203743) [/QUOTE] I miss that guy’s postings. ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/804 "2006-09-23T15:09:07Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] I miss that guy’s postings. [/QUOTE] Me too! ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/805 "2006-09-23T15:23:40Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] And “evidence” is not confined to Scripture. Joan of Arc, Lourdes, personal testimonies by a wide range of people, myself among them… they’re “evidence.” What degree of credulity or skepticism you bring to their evaluation is necessarily an individual judgment, about which, IMO, _de gustibus non est disputandum_. But the claim that “there is no evidence” is at best handwaving. You may consider the evidence shitful, on a par with flying-saucer accounts. That’s your privilege. You may feel that there is absolutely no such thing as predictive prophecy (and you may be right) – meaning that every instance of such reported in Scripture was back-written after the fact, attributing it to Jesus or an apostle or prophet some decades in the writer’s past. Again, your privilege. However, there’s a bit of self-serving fraudulent analysis in that – circular reasoning: “Every instance of predictive prophecy in Scripture was written after the fact and attributed back to a prophet. We know this because of the dates those books were written. But one of the main reasons for dating those books as we do is that they contain clear predictions of things that had not yet happened as of the time they were supposed to be describing, and had to be written after the fact. We’re certain of this last statement because predictive prophecy does not exist.” [/QUOTE] That’s pretty disingenuous reasoning, **Polycarp**. A miracle is by definition an extraordinary claim, for which YOU, not your adversaries, need to supply extraordinary evidence. Specifically, YOU are required to date those books in way beyond dispute before you can reasonably claim them to pre-date the miracles they predict. Until you can do so, it is only reasonable that people remain skeptical about the events described. Please don’t argue poorly and then place the blame for impoverished argumentation on your adversaries’ “self-serving fraudulent analysis” which is a fair description of your process here. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/806 "2006-09-23T16:24:10Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And “evidence” is not confined to Scripture. Joan of Arc, Lourdes, personal testimonies by a wide range of people, myself among them… they’re “evidence.” Joan of Arc’s post is her cite! Now follow her into combat! ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/807 "2006-09-23T16:33:15Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Joan of Arc’s post is her cite! Now follow her into combat! [/QUOTE] Isn’t Poly the freak who thinks the Wallmart heir is the second coming of christ? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/808 "2006-09-23T16:36:29Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] [Mu](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=203743) [/QUOTE] Fair enough. It is, again, a limitation of our language, though. It’s still true that all “events” are subsets of _it_, the universe, which had no cause. And that we find it useful to look at chains of events and speak of causes and effects, but that it isn’t intrinsically defensible to treat causality as the _reason_ something exists and/or happens and/or acts as it does. Determinism still remains an illusion. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/809 "2006-09-23T16:37:09Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] **JSGoddess** , I don’t recall ever suggesting that you ought to go to Hell. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say you did. > [@duffer](#): > > I’m not only not an evangelical trying to get you to have faith, I’m actively hoping you don’t “get saved”. > [@me](#): > > Well, I’m thankful some theist could come in and remind me just how utterly loathesome and despicable that side could be, too. > [@you](#): > > I feel Duffer was within his rights, and those pseudo-righteously harping on him are being jerks in the strict definition of the term. One strives to meet the standards of behavior Christ taught as a goal; one is not obliged to lie down and become a doormat just because someone who ought to know better has dirty feet and feels you are the appropriate place to wipe them. > [@me](#): > > And with that, you can go hang along with him. Hoping someone is damned isn’t just falling short of some pie-in-the-sky ideal. > > But hey, it’s my first time being called a jerk on the SDMB. I guess I just don’t know how to deal with the honor. Duffer wants badchad damned. You defend duffer and call me a jerk for decrying that, acting as if wanting someone not to be saved is just a minor, teensy little failing. That oh, he’s just a tiny bit short of his Christ-like goal. He’s short of his Christ-like goal like I’m short of being Muhammed Ali. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/810 "2006-09-23T16:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] That’s pretty disingenuous reasoning, **Polycarp**. A miracle is by definition an extraordinary claim, for which YOU, not your adversaries, need to supply extraordinary evidence. Specifically, YOU are required to date those books in way beyond dispute before you can reasonably claim them to pre-date the miracles they predict. Until you can do so, it is only reasonable that people remain skeptical about the events described. Please don’t argue poorly and then place the blame for impoverished argumentation on your adversaries’ “self-serving fraudulent analysis” which is a fair description of your process here. [/QUOTE] No, **Polycarp** is right. If you take a term used by theistic people {“God”, “prayer”, “miracle”, etc} and define it as “something that cannot be explained in terms of real things that actually exist in this world”, you can then address every subsequent explanation or elaboration by theistic people in one of two ways: • What you’re describing doesn’t exist because you can’t corroborate it with any evidence in the real world • What you’re describing exists, which means it’s an ordinary mundane process and not an indicator of \. That’s called begging the question. “\ is unreal. Unreal things aren’t real. Therefore \ doesn’t exist because it isn’t real.” ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/811 "2006-09-23T16:53:38Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Isn’t Poly the freak who thinks the Wallmart heir is the second coming of christ? [/QUOTE] Well, I wouldn’t use the word “freak”. I’d rather say he’s the slightly crazy dude who thinks the Wallmart heir is the second coming of christ. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/812 "2006-09-23T16:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=CarnalK] Well, I wouldn’t use the word “freak”. I’d rather say he’s the slightly crazy dude who thinks the Wallmart heir is the second coming of christ. [/QUOTE] You know, if somebody had a place where they kept track of the goofy shit that goes on around here, that poly/wallmart heir fiasco would seem to be a good addition… ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/813 "2006-09-23T17:07:31Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] … That’s called begging the question. “\ is unreal. Unreal things aren’t real. Therefore \ doesn’t exist because it isn’t real.” [/QUOTE] cf. [the undifferentiated universe](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7802782#post7802782). Look. I gave you the most graceful exit my annoyance would allow. If you really want to do this then let’s take it to GD. PS. Before you do, consider the term _useful_ in post #[767](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7802009#post7802009) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/814 "2006-09-23T17:25:51Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] Look. I gave you the most graceful exit my annoyance would allow. If you really want to do this then let’s take it to GD. [/QUOTE] How often do we get to see a comment in the **Pit** threatened with a move to **GD**? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/815 "2006-09-23T17:36:19Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] cf. [the undifferentiated universe](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7802782#post7802782). Look. I gave you the most graceful exit my annoyance would allow. If you really want to do this then let’s take it to GD. PS. Before you do, consider the term _useful_ in post #[767](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7802009#post7802009) [/QUOTE] Different approaches are useful in different circumstances. I find causality useful more often than not, but that doesn’t mean it is not useful to suspend that illusion for the times and situations where it introduces too much distortion or misapprehension of reality. Just as on a moment-to-moment basis I find it useful to think of “self” in terms of my individual self only, and to see the rest of my species, and the rest of universe, as “context” or “other”, even though that’s also an illusory oversimplificaton that occasionally distorts rather than simplifies. I’m not averse to relocating, but do we pack up our posts and stick them in the United Van and take them with us, or will a couple links in the first few posts suffice? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/816 "2006-09-23T17:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] How often do we get to see a comment in the **Pit** threatened with a move to **GD**? [/QUOTE] I like that, too…it’s like two guys getting ready to brawl in a parking lot, and one of them putting his jacket back on and saying “why don’t we go inside, sit down with a beer, and settle this like men?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/817 "2006-09-23T17:45:40Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] Different approaches are useful in different circumstances. I find causality useful more often than not, but that doesn’t mean it is not useful to suspend that illusion for the times and situations where it introduces too much distortion or misapprehension of reality. Just as on a moment-to-moment basis I find it useful to think of “self” in terms of my individual self only, and to see the rest of my species, and the rest of universe, as “context” or “other”, even though that’s also an illusory oversimplificaton that occasionally distorts rather than simplifies. I’m not averse to relocating, but do we pack up our posts and stick them in the United Van and take them with us, or will a couple links in the first few posts suffice? [/QUOTE] Illusorily do as illusory you and your illusory will illusorily pleases. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/818 "2006-09-23T18:50:11Z")
[QUOTE=ThePCapeman] Illusorily do as illusory you and your illusory will illusorily pleases. [/QUOTE] Mairzy dotes and doezy dotes and littlamzy divey? ---
**Author:** ![the\_PC\_apeman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ac8455/32.png) [@the\_PC\_apeman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_PC_apeman)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/819 "2006-09-23T18:54:33Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Mairzy dotes and doezy dotes and littlamzy divey? [/QUOTE] A kiddly divey, too – wouldn’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158/820 "2006-09-23T19:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] That’s pretty disingenuous reasoning, **Polycarp**. A miracle is by definition an extraordinary claim, for which YOU, not your adversaries, need to supply extraordinary evidence. Specifically, YOU are required to date those books in way beyond dispute before you can reasonably claim them to pre-date the miracles they predict. Until you can do so, it is only reasonable that people remain skeptical about the events described. Please don’t argue poorly and then place the blame for impoverished argumentation on your adversaries’ “self-serving fraudulent analysis” which is a fair description of your process here. [/QUOTE] You mistake me, **PRR**. **Diogenes** and I agree on much more than we differ on. The six-day Universe, Noah’s Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the origins of the Gospels and the Pastoral Letters… these are all issues on which we’re in pretty close agreement. What I called him on is waving away **everything** that purports to be evidence. Yes, they’re extraordinary claims. This means they need extraordinary proof. Matthew’s BS about zombies on the first Good Friday is haggadic if it’s anything but total garbage (and knowing Matthew’s propensity to tie everything to the Tanakh as prophecy even if he has to twist stuff out of all meaning, haggadic is the way to bet). But “evidence” is by definition items of data. A flying saucer sighting, an encounter with a cryptozoid, an apparition of the Virgin Mary – they’re **evidence**. Of _ **what** _, is quite a different question. Perhaps only of the credulity of the observer. But evidence, suitable for examination and if appropriate debunking. That was my point. Circular reasoning is invalid no matter who does it and in pursuit of what. You don’t get to **assume** that every incident in Scripture, every supposed religious experience, is fictional, delusory, etc., and then dismiss them because they obviously are, simply because you assume so. As for the Walmart heir – first, that was supposed to be metaphor rather than a claim of the “real” Second Coming – that I was convinced he would have the same sort of impact, based on who he apparently was in his early teens – and second, it’s obvious that I was way off base for thinking even that, based on the absence of any evidence of him doing anything but whatever billionaire-heir young men do with their copious free time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158.md?page=40) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/badchad-a-moment-of-your-time-if-you-can-spare-it/373158.md?page=42)