Your response to my point that several atheist have taken it upon themselves to call us stupid or deluded in this discussion is a link to The Minnesota Daily?
And based on this article, “least trusted” = “despised”? That’s some jump.
I happen to know for a fact you are not “despised” by “theists” because I am a theist and I don’t despise you; I go to a church that doesn’t despise you; and I practice a faith that pretty much frowns on despising. But you want to nail yourself to that cross, be my guest. I just find it very funny that atheists excuse their own personal bad behavior by generalizing bad behavior to “all Christians” or “all theists” even when the Christians/theists they’re actually talking to demonstrate not a shred of that behavior, and in fact disavow it.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
Point of fact, they do [appreciate being told they do dumb things].
[/quote]
Uh, okay. I take leave to doubt it, though.
Your maid? :dubious: I would only suggest that you consider whether a maid in your employ might not have ample motivation to agree with anything you might say on any subject.
[QUOTE=Jodi]
You know plenty of believers who, when asked why they believe say something to the effect of, “I’m immature, with an unlearned concept or reality” or “I know God doesn’t really exist but I choose to believe in Him for emotional comfort”?
Come on.
[/QUOTE]
Yes. Most “catholics” I know have this take. My in-laws, for the most part are “safey-zone” believers. They bury their dead with christian pageantry “just in case.” Or I get the standard “I’ve just always believed since I was a kid. I don’t go to church and I don’t pray. I just can’t imagine not being an Episcopalian, catholic, jewish, whatever.” I’ve posted in other threads that I don’t know a single “believer” who behaves in keeping with the tenets of their church. They are overwhelmingly catholic, but I realize that because I grew up in a heavily catholic neighborhood, I don’t have as much experience with members of other denominations.
The odd thing is, he seems to have a small fan-base. Why Kalhoun, who seems like a fairly reasonable person, sticks up for him is beyond me. Diogenes the Cynic knows a lot more about the Bible, and more importantly, has interesting things to say about specific issues, rather than a general “X’tianity is teh suxxors!!11!! I pwne all u noobs!!”
[/QUOTE]
Actually, the really odd thing is Diogenes the Cynic is often incredibly obnoxious in stating his opinion and disparaging the opposing camp, he just tends to pussy foot around religious discussion - usually taking a detached historian’s view. That can be “more interesting” sometimes, if you gave much of a shit about the history of the bible, I suppose.
Given that what you’ve “boiled down” badchad’s argument to is pretty much as how he has presented it himself, your post is pretty much useless (despite DrDeth madly slapping his helmut in tribute).
[QUOTE=Jodi]
Your response to my point that several atheist have taken it upon themselves to call us stupid or deluded in this discussion is a link to The Minnesota Daily?
[/quote]
It was the first news story on google that mentioned the study. Is Minnesota such an atheist bastion that the news story isn’t credible ?
[QUOTE=Jodi]
And based on this article, “least trusted” = “despised”? That’s some jump.
[/quote]
That, and the general behavior of most people in this country.
[QUOTE=Jodi]
I happen to know for a fact you are not “despised” by “theists” because I am a theist and I don’t despise you; I go to a church that doesn’t despise you; and I practice a faith that pretty much frowns on despising.
[/quote]
Assuming you are telling the truth, that just means you are part of a small minority.
[QUOTE=Jodi]
Your maid? :dubious: I would only suggest that you consider whether a maid in your employ might not have ample motivation to agree with anything you might say on any subject.
[/QUOTE]
I judge her by the work she does, and she does it well. She’s absolutely no “need” to agree with me on matters outside her job.
After being with me for five years I am pretty sure she knows as much.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
Assuming you are telling the truth, that just means you are part of a small minority.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said, nail yourself to that cross if you want; I won’t stop you. But thanks for the caveat of “assuming I’m telling the truth.” :rolleyes: Hard to believe your interactions with believers haven’t been all hugs and sunshine.
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
And everyone’s beliefs you call knowledge, and all knowledge is equal? Or some knowledge is privileged above other knowledge? Let’s discuss idol-worshippers. Is their belief that little wooden Tikkuu is the Lord of the Universe “knowledge”? Is that “knowledge” exactly as valid as your knowledge of Christ?
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Of course it is…how can it not be?
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
I guess I could flesh this out a little. I have absolutely no reason to think that anyone else’s faith or lack thereof is more or less valid than mine. I don’t think I am in a position to make that judgment, and it doesn’t matter anyway, because I can only do what I think is right for me. I personally believe that the Catholic Church provides excellent means to grow closer to God…through the Eucharist and the other sacraments, and it has helped me in this regard. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other valid ways to know God, and even the Church acknowledges this.
Let me ask you a question now…why the questions you ask above? Do you have some reason for believing…have I given you any reason to believe…that I would say any different? That I have no respect for anyone’s belief or lack of belief? Or is this just what you assume about Christians?
[QUOTE=Kalhoun]
Yes. Most “catholics” I know have this take. My in-laws, for the most part are “safey-zone” believers. They bury their dead with christian pageantry “just in case.” Or I get the standard “I’ve just always believed since I was a kid. I don’t go to church and I don’t pray. I just can’t imagine not being an Episcopalian, catholic, jewish, whatever.” I’ve posted in other threads that I don’t know a single “believer” who behaves in keeping with the tenets of their church. They are overwhelmingly catholic, but I realize that because I grew up in a heavily catholic neighborhood, I don’t have as much experience with members of other denominations.
[/QUOTE]
See, I’d suggest that your knowledge in this subject would be improved by getting to know some people who actually practice the faith they ascribe to, but honestly, I not at all certain you could abandon your prejudicial POV long enough to make that sort of discussion worthwhile for either party. (Visions of Kalhoun approaching a nun: “Why are you deluded?”) And I still say you are doing your relations a disservice if the above is the sort of thing they are saying, but you are interpreting that as “they admit God isn’t real but believe in him anyway,” which is what you were initially asserting. Seems more likely they don’t know if He’s real or not and choose to proceed under the assumption that He is. And what’s wrong with that?
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I guess I could flesh this out a little. I have absolutely no reason to think that anyone else’s faith or lack thereof is more or less valid than mine. I don’t think I am in a position to make that judgment, and it doesn’t matter anyway, because I can only do what I think is right for me. I personally believe that the Catholic Church provides excellent means to grow closer to God…through the Eucharist and the other sacraments, and it has helped me in this regard. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other valid ways to know God, and even the Church acknowledges this.
Let me ask you a question now…why the questions you ask above? Do you have some reason for believing…have I given you any reason to believe…that I would say any different? That I have no respect for anyone’s belief or lack of belief? Or is this just what you assume about Christians?
[/QUOTE]
Certainly it’s my experience with proselytizing Christians I’ve been exposed to.
Does it surprise you that there are many, many Christians who feel their sworn duty is to convert unbelievers to Christ, even when asked politely to shut up? Or are you being disingenuous?
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
You realize that this is a losing argument for you, don’t you? You haul out all the people who believe in Jesus, or whatever, and I’ll haul out all the people since the dawn of time who didn’t, and you lose. By a very large number.
[/quote]
Sallymander, if I were attempting an Appeal To Popularity to justify why belief in God is right, you’d have a case. Too bad that all the claim I was making was that belief in God is markedly different from “belief” in the IPU &c. Maybe you should read my post again.
Ah, I fear you were mistaken as to the argument I was advancing; but in any case, let’s each advance our own side of the case, and not each other’s, mkay?
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber]
Certainly it’s my experience with proselytizing Christians I’ve been exposed to.
[/QUOTE]
Have I been proselytizing?
Of course not, on either count. I know those folks are out there, and I have never pretended that there weren’t, but I am answering questions about me. MY beliefs, MY faith. I do not wish to speak for any other Christian, and would do a pretty poor job of it if I tried. You took a quality some other Christians have (although most of the people you encounter who do this are not Catholic, or many of the other mainstream denominations, I would venture to say), and applied it to me, with no other reason to do so other than my statement that I am a Christian. I don’t know what this is other than blatant prejudice, to be quite honest. I never in any way said that I was speaking for all Christians. In fact, my entire point has been that Christianity is not a monolith.
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia]
It’s as if the crazy guy at the end of the bar who told me George Bush is a reptillian alien from beyond the moon thought he won the debate when I smiled, nodded, and walked away.
[/QUOTE]
I will at this time reiterate my call for a moderated debate with rules, if anyone wants to play. This could be a lot more fun if we designated a couple people as primary participants and the rest commented on and evaluated the points made, instead of all this back-and-forth “oh yeah? well thppt!” / “Thppt? I burn your thpppt!” stuff.
My lack of participation in the last 3-5 pages or so isn’t due to disinterest but to the brief intrusion of Real Life (ha!). I don’t let it happen often but sometimes it’s unavoidable… Der Trihs, expressing a perspective far from unique to Der Trihs:
Not to pick on Der Trihs or accuse him of doing this, but
If anything you hold to be of the real world is disqualified from being comprehended as <insert theistic term here>, and only things inexplicable as real phenomena can be authentically called <insert theistic term here> without you saying “But that’s not <insert theistic term here>, that’s <nontheistic word substituted>”, then hello gee whiz, <insert theistic term here> isn’t real.
This is particulary true if you’re going to take the position that unless something can be actively demonstrated to have discernable existence in terms of things that both participants understand to be real, we wave our Occam’s shaving equipment at it in dismissal.
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
Geez, I guess in the Pit a person can’t make a joke. The point to this was that it would take a lot more than this message board for me to explain how the Bible is interpreted by the Church or anyone else. The Bible is a big, big book, and it has only been 2000 years of people trying to understand it (and that’s just the NT). The catchism is about 1000 pages long. Do you really think I can boil it down to a pithy little statement? Here’s the thing about the Church. They took that big, big, book, and out of it got the catechism and the various creeds, espeically the Nicene Creed, that summed up their religious beliefs. It would be very difficult to find specific Bible verses that stand alone in supporting each line of the creed. It came through understanding the history, context, symbolism, and relationship to the OT that the Church came to their teachings. I am not a theologian, and not entirely equipped to try to explain it.. I am happy, as I have said before, to try to explain individual teachings as best I can.
[/quote]
But I didn’t ask you to explain any of that. All I asked, since you mentioned upthread that you weren’t 100% in agreement with it, which part(s) you didn’t agree with. Surely that’s a smaller task then the one you describe above?
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena]
I guess I could flesh this out a little. **I have absolutely no reason to think that anyone else’s faith or lack thereof is more or less valid than mine. ** I don’t think I am in a position to make that judgment, and it doesn’t matter anyway, because I can only do what I think is right for me. I personally believe that the Catholic Church provides excellent means to grow closer to God…through the Eucharist and the other sacraments, and it has helped me in this regard. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other valid ways to know God, and even the Church acknowledges this.
[/QUOTE]
Okay…you’re going to have to expand on this a little. There are some things that can have two valid answers. I buy a pair of pink high-tops. The fact that they are pink is a valid observation. The fact that they are high-tops is also a valid observation.
Such is not the case with the existence of god. He either exists or he doesn’t. One is valid and one isn’t. By virtue of the fact that you believe he exists, you invalidate the other person’s opinion. That’s not to say that everyone doesn’t have a right to their opinion, but validation, in the case of religion, cannot occur in both scenarios.
[QUOTE=Pazu]
But I didn’t ask you to explain any of that. All I asked, since you mentioned upthread that you weren’t 100% in agreement with it, which part(s) you didn’t agree with. Surely that’s a smaller task then the one you describe above?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, it’s an even bigger task, because I would have to explain what their reasoning is, and why I don’t agree. I wouldn’t even know where to start. Here is a small example. The Church seems to place a huge value on Jesus being an only child, and Mary remaining a virgin for life. I have heard some compelling evidence to believe that he had brothers & sisters. Personally, I don’t know why it matters, anyway. See, my problem here is to REALLY explain it to you, I would have to find a cite for the theological basis for the Church’s position (which I couldn’t possibly remember right now without finding a cite), and I would have to find a cite for the scholars & language experts who believe that some of the translations of “brothers” can actually mean “cousins,” and another cite for the scholars & language experts who believe that when it says cousins it actually means cousins. And this is just for one, small and to me, rather insignificant piece of doctrine. You may think it is simple for me to just say “I don’t believe this, and here’s why,” but it is nowhere close to being simple. All I can tell you is that I studied & prayed as much as I could, and came up with answers that make sense to me.