BadChad, a moment of your time, if you can spare it

If “physiological conditions” include the ability of your brain to reason and make a selection, why is that inconsistent with free will? And why isn’t it an evaluation?

The book can neither consider its state of teetering nor elect whether or not to fall.

This is sounding a lot like semantics to me. If the decision is based on such variables as “personality, motivations, or mood,” why can’t we call those variables, collectively, the will, which in turn “causes” the choice? Why aren’t all those variables, in essence, me, in the act of choosing? Why is the result “dictated” as opposed to “chosen”? It seems to me that the result only becomes inevitable after the selection is made. Before, having no frame of reference to see how the situation will unfold and no way to predict it, we cannot “know” the result; the result itself does not exist. Once it appears, it exists and is immutable. How is that not choice?

Well, not to get too deep, but this only begs the question of what is “real” as opposed to illusory that does not exist physically. You want to call all the elements used to make a selection “variables” and you want to say that we have no “choice” but to choose what we will in fact choose – which I assume you admit cannot be known until after the choice is made (i.e., is not subject to prediction, because the variables are too many and too complex). I don’t have a problem with that, I guess. I just don’t see how it’s that much different from free will, on a going forward basis. Even if you posit that every choice that is ever to be made is already set forth (predestination, as well as predeterminism), that’s of no relevance from where we stand in the timeline, actually weighing variables and preparing to make selections that only become inevitable in retrospect. But then, every thing becomes inevitable in retrospect. I don’t see how that proves that free will is an illusion.

ThePCCapeman –

If it’s completely identical in every respect, how is it not this same existence?

Could she decide otherwise? Sure. Why not? But why would she? Since we are both living the same existence, making an identical evaluation of identical factors, why would we not exercise our wills in the same way? If you replicate the exact same experience for the exact same person, you would expect both iterations to make the same choice, no? How is that inconsistent with free will? If I don’t like chocolate, I won’t select chocolate. If you theorize a separate universe where I still don’t like chocolate, the fact that I don’t choose it is hardly surprising. You can theorize a thousand universes, and if I don’t like chocolate in any of them, I won’t choose it in any of them. How does that tend to disprove free will?

Again, as far as I can see this whole theory is entirely retroactive. The minute you choose chocolate you can no longer choose vanilla. Once you have exercised your ability to choose, you have lost it. But it makes no sense to me to say it didn’t exist before that.

My cat has a sum total of prior lifetime experience leading up to this very moment. Has he free will? The tree outside my window too? Everything? Even CarnalK’s teetering book?

You do not need to conduct the experiment to know the possible results. Either the same result happens each time or it does not. Either way, if we define free will to be merely any given state in either a deterministic or a random system, then we are just playing semantics. Could you point me to some resources where I could read up on your point of view?

In a deterministic world you would. But that’s not really the point. The point is either the evaluation produces the same result each time or it does not. Either the action is determined by everything leading up to it or it is random.

Again, yes. In a deterministic world they would.

Because you did not just decide that you like chocolate in a vacuum. Something, biology and past experiences with chocolate caused you to like it. If your liking for chocolate appeared completely out of nowhere (ie. you never knew chocolate existed before) how is that different than randomness?

I don’t know what you mean by “in a deterministic world.” As opposed to what kind of world?

So I don’t dislike chocolate in a vacuum, and my dislike of it is predicated on biology and past experience. I’m with you so far, but how does that negate free will? This completely hypothetical me that doesn’t like chocolate has a hypothetical mom who bakes her a chocolate birthday cake. I choose to eat it, so that her feelings are not hurt. It’s an exercise of free will. I could have chosen not to eat it. In some parallel universe that is exactly the same in every respect (and therefore is really this one), the same me makes the same choice, obviously. How does that prove free will doesn’t exist?

Well, yes, to the extent he has the ability to evaluate options and select one in the absence of coercion. Put food in his dish; he eats it or not, as he chooses, right?

How can things that are not sentient be said to have any will, let alone one that is free? How can they have “prior lifetime experience” or indeed any “experience” at all?

How can you know that the same result happens each time if you don’t conduct the experiment?

To the extent I understand this, I agree with it – which is why I certainly have never defined free will as “any given state in either a deterministic [whatever that is] or a random system.”

Are you kidding me? I can barely grasp the concepts you guys are throwing at me. I feel like a monkey that’s just been handed an Ipod. :slight_smile: I have no organized POV based on any resources; I’ve never heard of this stuff before. I’m just stating the obvious objections as they occur to me.

Quite possibly as many as 8 of them, or so I am told.

Of course

If the behavior of the teetering book can be predicted with 100% reliability with just a few variables like starting position and velocity and whether there is a breeze in he room and room temperature, no. The tree… can you elaborate on which behavior of the tree you’re positing as the dependent variable?

:confused:

My Dad had a real smart dog once. He’d say to the dog, “I’m going to town…do you want to come along, or do you want to stay?” And danged if that dog didn’t understand that just perfectly, he’d either come along or he’d stay, every time!

Yes, I know that either the same result happens each time or it does not, but it kind of makes a difference which, doesn’t it?

Sure.

15 pages so far devoted to one of, if not the, assholish assholes in the hitory of message boards, and I still have a question.

Have we yet proven God doesn’t exist? Based on the attitude of those that beleive in God/Yahweh/Allah/etc, I have to wonder why badchad has such a vociferous, visceral and headstrong hatred of Muslims and Jews. Er, wait. It’s just Christians? It can’t be one of three that he seems to have issues with. All three beleive in a “phantom”.

He’s an angry, dissatisfied, bitter person that just can’t find happiness in anything and therefore has to try to tear down anything that makes people around him content, since he’ll never be content. I’d liken it directly to a malignant cancer. He is inherently abnormal to nature and must survive only by attempting to mestastacize and destroy any healthy life in his vicinity.

I get atheism, and I can respect the stance. You don’t beleive in God. I get it. I’m not only not an evangelical trying to get you to have faith, I’m actively hoping you don’t “get saved”. The idea of sharing the Sports Bar on the corner of Jesus St and Lombardi Ave (because in Heaven, home games to Lambeau Field are a right) with you is a turn-off.

Should you ever “convert” I hope to know about it that day so I can turn to atheism. I’d hate to spend eternity with the likes of you.

Hellfire would be easier to tolerate than you. And if you need something that can be proven, I’d rather be Manson’s bitch than toast your baptism.

So you missed that day in Sunday School when they were talking about the whole “love thy neighbor” bit, huh?

That’s a shame. Cindy Evans was totally smoking in her peasant dress, which for all the skin it covered could not hide her curves. Also the lesson itself was rather ennobling.

Wow, duffer! Way to kick richly deserved ass! An excellent, excellent post! Good on ya!

From dictionary.com and also the definition used most by philosophers:

Free will: Philosophy. the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

When you admit your dislike of chocolate is predicated on biology and past experience, you are admitting that it is determined by physical forces at least. If you appeal to god as endowing you with these preferences then your choice is determined by divine forces. Either way that negates free will. It means you couldn’t just decide on your own to like chocolate unless some additional and compelling physical or divine force made you do so.

When you choose to eat your mother’s cake it is only because you were in a set of circumstances in which the causes in favor of eating the cake outweighed the causes not too. You could not change the circumstances you were in nor the state of mind that you were in when you chose to eat the cake.

The example of the parallel universe illustrates that given a set of circumstances, and given your particular biology; you would be powerless to make any decision other than that was determined by god or nature. This powerlessness to break free from your biology or your past environment is why your will is not, and can not, be free.

I love it when true Christian morals come to the surface.

You being a douchenozzle has nothing at all to do with my stance on religion. Should I convert to Satanism tomorrow, I’d hold you in the same regard.

I wonder what Satan would do should you be banished to Hell. I can imagine even he’d realize the whole fiasco concerning Job was a trick God played on him to eventually stick him with you.

But you don’t beleive in an afterlife, so it doesn’t matter. You don’t need to respond since it’s so absurd. It doesn’t exist so it’s a moot point. Respond if you must, but convince me there is no afterlife and all religion is fake and a sham.

Once you do that, you can tell me I’m wrong in beleiving.

And what exactly is the reason for attacking beleivers? What happened to you? What did I do to foment this hatred of me for what I beleive in?

And, yes, I’m a mortal. I’m not the Second Coming of Christ. I have faults, and one of them is the hubris of deciding you’re an asshole. I realize it’s what you want. The attention. What you crave. I’ll play along for a bit, what the hell?
Prove my faith is wrong and I’ll join your camp. You challenge us to prove God exists. The onus is on you to make the challenge and lay out your evidence to the contrary. I eagerly await my conversion.

Never been to Sunday School. I still know it’s wrong to lie, cheat and steal. But I don’t need religion to tell me that. My religion is a very personal thing that doesn’t respond well to outright declarations of me being an idiot for believing them. My politics are one thing, saying I’m feeble-minded in my faith and prayer for dead parents and a sibling is getting a bit personal. Just saying.

Dude, cite. You can’t leave us hanging on this.

duffer, just curious. What if you learned through your exchanges with badchad how NOT to become angry when your chain is pulled that way?

(This is not intended to lecture you at all. Something similar happened to me on another discussion board and the experience was amazing. That’s why I asked.)

Now that’s funny.

Ah, but I am also “thy neighbor.” Jesus was including all of us jerks, and douchebags and all of the other abusive terms you hypocritical christans have used to describe us, in the all-inclusive term “neighbors.” Or do you interpret that that as “Love your fellow Christian neighbors, and fuck all them other heathens, atheists, pagans,” etc.?Another fine example of Christian hypocrisy in action. I couldn’t write it better myself.

Besides, how do you know that I’m NOT a Christian? Maybe this atheism stuff is just a rhetorical ploy designed to shame you into confronting your own shortcomings as a fellow Christian? Maybe it’s a test of your ability to love your neighbor, to speak kindly of him, to turn the other cheek, to suffer meekly for your faith, to be like unto the little children…well, actually, you’re doing pretty well on the “be like unto the little children” part, but otherwise, if this is a test of your Christian faith, I have to tell you, your grades so far don’t look so good.

It’s funny, but yesterday I was teaching Melville’s story “Bartleby” to my English majors class, and like other students, they had a hard grasping the point of the story, in which Melville almost literally excoriates Christian society for its hypocrisy in accepting Jesus’s commandment “Go ye and love one another” only partly. IOW, like you, Melville’s Christian narrator SAYS that he reveres Jesus, tries to follow him, and otherwise fills twenty pages with Christian drivel, but he turns off his compassion for his fellow man when the going gets hard. It’s not “Love your fellow man when it’s convenient” or “when it doesn’t cost you much money” or “when he’s not being an obnoxious jerk,” but simply “love ye one another.”

Christians like to complain reverently about how mysterious the Bible is to read, and how it must be read carefully and thoughtfully by scholars of near-Eastern ancient texts and on and on, which parts of it might be, but in certain other parts the lucidity would bite you in the ass if it were a schnauzer. Take the part where Jesus does a show and tell Q. and A. session with a particularly dim bulb who comes up and asks him to spell it out for him, he doesn’t quite get Jesus’ point. You remember: “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?” So Jesus rattles off a couple of oldies but goodies from the OT and the dim bulb asks "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? " and Jesus says (this is all in Matthew 19, if you’re interested) “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell all that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

Now this is pretty plain speaking, it seems to me, not some theologically-dense passage requiring careful parsing. You’re being told to get rid of your car and your copper-bottomed pots and all your other shit, and give the money to charity. Pretty good plan, and a pretty clear plan, simplified and dumbed-down and accessible. But do you do it? Of course not. You prefer to hang on to your possessions, and tell me not to abort my pregnancies or have gay sex or hundreds of other issues that are much less scripturally clear? Why? Because of the beam in your own eye, that’s why.

These threads are good for me, if not for you. They remind me of the limitations of Christians even to begin practicing their own standards of Christian behavior. If Jodi and duffer and kunilou pracitce Christianity for years and years, and still fall so short of even being able to recognize how their professed master tells them explicitly how to behave, then I can only shake my head sadly and observe how futile it is to practice religion in general and Christianity in particular.

Well, I’m thankful some theist could come in and remind me just how utterly loathesome and despicable that side could be, too.

Sorry, missed this before somehow. IMO it was reasonably non-confrontational (all debating has some confrontation, that’s pretty much unavoidable). I suspect more posts like that and less like “Jesus was a cunt” will make more headway convincing folks of your arguments.

Given how long this thread is, it’s impossible to make comments that have not already been made. Pretty soon, we’re going to have the OP again, and the thread will begin running backwards.

Never one to pass up a challenge; I’d just like to say ducks spoke to me in my dreams. (They claimed to have had sex with John Corrado).

You didn’t specify that the comments need be relevant.

Is there anyone who thinks this friend doesn’t need to be guillotined?

Because I’m the OP, and I think so.