# Bait and Switch at the SDMB **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946 "2004-07-26T16:31:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/41 "2004-07-26T22:21:30Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Seems to be going pretty slowly here, taking about 2 minutes to load a page. Considering that I am currently the only person in the building pulling bandwidth and there’s a full T-1 here, the slowdown probably is not on my end. This page loaded in under five seconds for me (1500mbps DSL). Can’t say what your problem is. ---
**Author:** ![Sylkyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/da6949/32.png) [@Sylkyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylkyn)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/42 "2004-07-26T22:24:26Z")
I guess I am blessed with either a killer cable connection, or my $4.95 has gone a long way, because I’ve not experienced _any_ type of slowness on these boards. Neither when posting, searching, (rarely search, but still) or just flipping pages. I also never had any problem with this prior to the boards going to pay. Bet I can count on one hand the number of times I’ve had “slow days” here. Of course, now that I’ve said this, it will give me “404’s” until my computer implodes. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/43 "2004-07-26T22:25:36Z")
You all need to learn the joys of freecell while you’re waiting for your page(s) to load. Although, right now, I’m not really seeing slow service. It took maybe three seconds for this Reply to Thread page to come up. Is that slow? Are my expectations too low?? ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/44 "2004-07-26T22:29:30Z")
I usually end up in another window working on something else while I wait for things to load. Right now it happens to be Dreamweaver as I sit here attempting to be creative with this freaking Intranet site I’m supposed to do. ---
**Author:** ![LolaBaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LolaBaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaBaby)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/45 "2004-07-26T22:33:40Z")
That’s what I usually do. Right now it’s not slow for me at all, it’s loading under 3 seconds. But when it is hamster break time, I just surf on other boards while waiting for a page to load. It honestly doesn’t bother me that much. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/46 "2004-07-26T22:36:26Z")
Me? Actually I’m not “complaining about” anything, per se. I’m simply pointing out a few things people are choosing to ignore. Hm. Ignore…ignorance. Ignoooooore…Ignorance…Interesting. 1. It could not possibly have gotten past the people of the CR that SDMB could be run as an NPO. They’re much, MUCH smarter than I am; many people are, it was bound to occur to someone at some point. As such, the SDMB would have been able to accept donations. If I am incorrect in this, I wish someone would explain it; no one has answered that suggestion AFAIK, and I would welcome understanding that more fully. Wow. I haven’t used that many acronyms since I was in the military. 2. Yes, that is the way businesses run. And, although it’s a dying concept, it was once believed that customer satisfaction was something to strive for. Something, in fact, that many businesses attained toward in order to keep those paying customers. “If you don’t like it, there’s the door” is almost as silly as “This is America! If you don’t like it, go live in Russia!” (Yes, I know, but I’m a product of the 70’s.) 3. As pointed out before, lack of a voice of dissention removes all system for correction. There SHOULD be people pointing out “Um, this is wrong. It should not be that way.” Whether you agree with those people or not is up to you; silencing those people automatically=increase of totalitarianism. No, I don’t think I’m overboard at all. It’s true. Whether government, home owners association, or message board. Taking away negative feedback removes your system for correction of error. 4. It was mentioned that if we were paying for this service, it would be possible for the boards to upgrade servers and thus run more efficiently. Now everyone is rather looking at the sky,whistling, and acting like that was never mentioned. But, as I suggested before; wouldn’t it be oh, so much easier to get rid of, say, posts dating earlier than 2002? If it’s wrong to bump threads from back then (because it eats up hamster space), why keep it on the same server? Why not archive it and put it elsewhere? Fertheloveagod, some T-word was in here the other night, resurrecting old threads like they were candy, til **Tveblen** came along and squooshed the T-word like a little bug and locked the threads. So…why not do that? That’d free up ALL KINDSA bandwidth, no? Yes, I realize the search function enables people to see old threads, but do you really think that those subjects have not been updated or improved on in 2 years? That’s all. Oh, and there are people I miss like hades that made this place fun & frustrating & hilarious & unique. And, as I said before, We’re probably missing out on some new people who would add some fresh perspective & spark debate. Sheep are boring. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/47 "2004-07-26T22:54:41Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Fertheloveagod, some T-word was in here the other night, resurrecting old threads like they were candy… How _do_ you ressurect candy, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/48 "2004-07-26T23:01:48Z")
Ever been around a toddler? Not pretty. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/49 "2004-07-26T23:07:28Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How _do_ you ressurect candy, anyway? Well, they brought back red M&Ms, didn’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/50 "2004-07-26T23:14:39Z")
As I understand it, right now the subscription fees are going towards current and past expenses. That is, the SDMB spent a whole buttload of money and the CR wants some of it back. The CR decided that either the SDMB pays its own way from now on, or they pull the plug. IF the CR makes enough on the SDMB, THEN they MIGHT decide to upgrade the server, the software, hire more tech support, etc. I hope they do. But I’m not going to promise that they will. > [@](#): > > It was mentioned that if we were paying for this service, it would be possible for the boards to upgrade servers and thus run more efficiently. Now everyone is rather looking at the sky,whistling, and acting like that was never mentioned. But, as I suggested before; wouldn’t it be oh, so much easier to get rid of, say, posts dating earlier than 2002? If it’s wrong to bump threads from back then (because it eats up hamster space), why keep it on the same server? Why not archive it and put it elsewhere? I don’t think that any staff member ever OFFICIALLY said that the board would upgrade servers, unless it was with the stipulations above…that is, that the subscriptions were great enough to pay for the current expenses and past debt that the SDMB has incurred. We’ve had a very bad experience with archiving. TubaDiva spent umpteen hours archiving, and put many very fine threads in that archive…and she watched it vanish when we did a software switch. I don’t think (but can’t say for sure) that she’ll ever want to archive anything again. I’m willing to try it, I am not as technically savvy as some of our other staff members. I don’t know whether or not we’ll try an archive again. Personally, I’d like to see it, but I’m pretty busy these days with trying to buy and improve a book store. I’m pretty sure that if we archived threads, we’d have to re-index the whole board (and that could take QUITE a while) AND then index the archives. Would you like to see the boards shut down for a couple of weeks every year? I’m pretty sure that the last time Jerry mentioned re-indexing the boards, he also mentioned having to take them offline for a couple of weeks, at least, to do it. It’s not just the hamster space that old threads eat up…it’s front page space, as well. The front page of just about all forums is at a premium. Every time an old thread gets bumped, a new thread is relegated, perhaps before its time, to the second page. ---
**Author:** ![porcupine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ac91a4/32.png) [@porcupine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/porcupine)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/51 "2004-07-26T23:24:13Z")
Frankly, I’d be all for taking the boards off-line for a couple of weeks every year to reindex if reindexing would mean the search engine would find things reliably. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/52 "2004-07-26T23:28:48Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Despite the fact that several people (many of whom have since left) offered donations which were graciously declined. > However; we are indeed, paying for a service, at least IMO. “The right to post” is grasping at straws. I have the “right to post” at several other places as well, as do many members here. And we exercise that right. I’m sorry, but I am not some mindless drone who accepts the establishment’s “Because I say so.” So, uh, go to one of those other places! “Mindless drone”? The “establishment”? Is The Man trying to keep you down, Maureen? Sheesh . . . This is one of the biggest, busiest message boards on the net, and for years they provided it at a substantial loss to themselves. Other boards may be willing to accept the financial costs of it (being, for most of them, quite small) but the Reader finally decided that they didn’t want to pay for all of us to have this hangout. I don’t get why you think that’s unreasonable. Figure it out. It’s not about the “establishment” trying to do whatever it is they try to do to you. It’s about _them not wanting to pay a lot of money to support this place._ So they charge us instead. You don’t think that’s reasonable? Don’t pay for it. If you are here, then apparently the boards provide some service to you that all the free places don’t. > [@Maureen](#): > > And, although it’s a dying concept, it was once believed that customer satisfaction was something to strive for. Wait, what? Since when were you a customer before this? Why would customer satisfaction have anything to do with it since _customers pay money for service._ You were not a customer. “Customer satisfaction” is not a moral obligation, it’s a money-making tactic. If they weren’t making any money off of us, the concept’s pretty much moot, don’t you think? What are you, a moron? Look, Maureen, until you can come up with some argument beyond the idea that the Chicago Reader is, you know, oppressing the working class, then you’re just flapping your gums in the wind. They decided to change money because running the place costs money. They didn’t want to pay anymore. What’s wrong with that? ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/53 "2004-07-26T23:31:08Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Me? Actually I’m not “complaining about” anything, per se. I’m simply pointing out a few things people are choosing to ignore. Hm. Ignore…ignorance. Ignoooooore…Ignorance…Interesting. > > 1. It could not possibly have gotten past the people of the CR that SDMB could be run as an NPO. They’re much, MUCH smarter than I am; many people are, it was bound to occur to someone at some point. As such, the SDMB would have been able to accept donations. If I am incorrect in this, I wish someone would explain it; no one has answered that suggestion AFAIK, and I would welcome understanding that more fully. Wow. I haven’t used that many acronyms since I was in the military. The Chicago Reader is a business; The Straight Dope is their property. There is some idea in there of making some sort of profit from what they do. Corporations cannot accept donations, even for something as worthwhile as The Straight Dope. This has been explained multiple times over the years. Why would the Reader – or any other business – be obligated to turn a property they own into a nonprofit entity so you can have that feel-good feeling of donating money? > [@Maureen](#): > > 1. Yes, that is the way businesses run. And, although it’s a dying concept, it was once believed that customer satisfaction was something to strive for. Something, in fact, that many businesses attained toward in order to keep those paying customers. “If you don’t like it, there’s the door” is almost as silly as “This is America! If you don’t like it, go live in Russia!” (Yes, I know, but I’m a product of the 70’s.) It’s not so much about “customer satisfaction,” (though we hope you are somewhat satisfied, at least). It is about “website survival.” The Reader has carried this site for the better part of 5 years. They could have just shut the door and thrown us all out; intead, they put the site on a subscription basis. We’re lucky we got that even, considering we’re so not their core business and nowhere near to pulling our weight. > [@Maureen](#): > > 1. As pointed out before, lack of a voice of dissention removes all system for correction. There SHOULD be people pointing out “Um, this is wrong. It should not be that way.” Whether you agree with those people or not is up to you; silencing those people automatically=increase of totalitarianism. No, I don’t think I’m overboard at all. It’s true. Whether government, home owners association, or message board. Taking away negative feedback removes your system for correction of error. We have plenny dissension. This thread, for instance. What more do you want us to do, pay people to come here and yell at us? > [@Maureen](#): > > 1. It was mentioned that if we were paying for this service, it would be possible for the boards to upgrade servers and thus run more efficiently. Now everyone is rather looking at the sky,whistling, and acting like that was never mentioned. I’m afraid you are mistaken. Here’s what was said. From Ed Zotti’s thread [The Straight Dope is switching to paid subscriptions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=253315) > [@EdZotti](#): > > **Do subscriptions mean the board will run faster?** > > We make no promises, but we’re hopeful. The board ran reasonably well after our server upgrade in November 2002, when we had 3,500 current members - that is, people who had posted within the last 30 days. Shortly before switching to subscriptions we had 7,000 current members and the board ran slowly - OK, it crawled - during peak times. The practical capacity of the board, i.e., the largest number to whom we can provide decent service, is somewhere between those two figures. Our initial subscription drive attracted 3,800 users, more than we expected, and traffic hasn’t declined noticeably. We’ll see how things shake out. For now we’ll just say this: If board performance improves, we won’t be surprised. > > **Will I be getting anything else for my money?** > > Well, you don’t get a tote bag, if that’s what you were hoping for. On the other hand, you’ll be helping to put the SDMB on a sound financial footing, thereby ensuring its continued existence and making this a better world. > > **What if not enough people subscribe? Won’t the board go into a death spiral?** > > At the moment we’re not too worried - 3,800 paid subscribers is a pretty healthy showing. We’ll be monitoring progress closely over the next few months and will make adjustments if need be. > > All that having been said, let’s face it - this is the moment of truth. We think the SDMB is one of the best boards on the 'net. We’re charging what we think is a modest amount of money. The old system of no fees and lousy service wasn’t cutting it. We think it’s time to give the mighty power of capitalism a try. > [@Maureen](#): > > But, as I suggested before; wouldn’t it be oh, so much easier to get rid of, say, posts dating earlier than 2002? If it’s wrong to bump threads from back then (because it eats up hamster space), why keep it on the same server? Why not archive it and put it elsewhere? Fertheloveagod, some T-word was in here the other night, resurrecting old threads like they were candy, til **Tveblen** came along and squooshed the T-word like a little bug and locked the threads. So…why not do that? That’d free up ALL KINDSA bandwidth, no? Yes, I realize the search function enables people to see old threads, but do you really think that those subjects have not been updated or improved on in 2 years? > > That’s all. Oh, and there are people I miss like hades that made this place fun & frustrating & hilarious & unique. And, as I said before, We’re probably missing out on some new people who would add some fresh perspective & spark debate. Sheep are boring. The problem is not old posts; it’s that we have, at peak times, upwards of 600 users trying to use the board at one time, reading, writing, and searching. That’s a lot of pull on the server and the T-1 line. Even if we had no old posts at all on the board, this pressure would be there, along with slow times/eaten postings/lockups. At the height of things, pull from this site had appropriated a disproportionate share of the available resources for all the Chicago Reader’s online services. The resources have been re-allocated since that time, and we have even less to work with than we did before. It’s how things are. I’m sorry you’re so disappointed in the site now that we’re no longer so free-wheeling. There were a lot of people that decided “if it’s not free, it’s not for me.” Our very generous Dopers offered to pay for most anyone who didn’t have the jack – or just decided they didn’t want to pay. They still offer to pay for people who can’t afford it. We’re still open for business for nothing for the first 30 days for anyone who merely wanders by. New blood still flows here; hell, couple hundred people have signed up and paid full fare since we went to a subscription basis. I’m fairly confident they’re not all old members who missed the cutoff date. your humble TubaDiva Adminstrator ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/54 "2004-07-26T23:47:19Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Are they going to have a kegger? With hookers? Search isn’t working, but I’d saved this to use as a sig: “You’re probably going to spend ten, twenty, or more years of your life working for a company that’d kill you and sell your organs if it got the CEO a third gold-plated bathtub for himself and his hookers.” – GMRyujin 29April04 ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2004, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/55 "2004-07-26T23:50:58Z")
There was an internet worm on the loose today. All web services were slow. The SDMB is only as fast as its weakest link. That may be your computer or internet connection from home or work. That may be the Reader’s connection. That may be the Reader’s servers. Or in may be that mass of “cloud” in between. Today, it was probably that cloud. This site is either worth your time and money under the terms the Reader and Staff decide to provide it to you, or it isn’t. No one forces you to visit this site. No one forced you to pay. And from a purely selfish point of view - go ahead an leave - that’s more bandwidth and server capacity for those of us who hold it more dear. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/56 "2004-07-27T00:12:38Z")
Does anyone know whether or not the Reader has to publish a financial report at the end of each fiscal year and whether or not the SD and SDMB (now that the latter is a revenue source) have to be included on it? I mean, since the Reader is a corporation and all. As far as it being a business and wanting to make a profit, where does customer satisfaction fit into the SDMB business plan? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/57 "2004-07-27T00:29:01Z")
**Kobayashi Maru** I paid to be here because, for the most part, I like it here. However… What I find to be most disturbing is what I perceive to be a poor attitude on the part of the CR and certain Admins. We used to be told, “What does yew expect? It’s FREE!” Now we are being told, “Hey, yer lucky to even HAVE a board!” We are stuck in our own little no win scenario because the people who could do something (CR and employess) , don’t care to. And the ones who do seem to want to (a partial nod to certain mods and Admins), can’t. Yeah, the Admins are stuck in this Kobayashi Maru, too, I guess. If they had the abilty to affect change, I’m pretty sure they would. So, how do we get to the Chicago Reader? Shall we start some sort of Enterprise style letter and e-mail campaign, enlightening them as to how loved and possibly valuable the SDMB is? Or would that make them likely to just pull the plug? Hi, **Mo**! And a very small side note to those who now think they know someting…: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/58 "2004-07-27T00:30:12Z")
I don’t mind the slowness so much–it’s the unpredictability that irks. You can be zooming along, wee, hah, post post–and then, thud. What happened? Don’t know. Try to access again. Nope. Sometimes this takes a minute to clear up, sometimes hours. It’s frustrating. If the board is truly undergoing maintenance or something at times, it would be nice to have a message to that effect on the screen so that I don’t keep pushing _renew_ like a coke-starved monkey. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/59 "2004-07-27T00:32:19Z")
Can’t we put together a plan of some sort to charge more and get better service? I for one was willing to pay a higher amount for lifetime membership. It would be nice to run some numbers and see what we can all do. Make it a win-win for members and the CR. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/60 "2004-07-27T00:56:24Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Nope. > > **Six** , I’d hate to see you go. (even though that’s a long way off) Hell, I clash with her on a regular basis, but I wouldn’t want **catsix** to leave either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946.md?page=4)