# Bait and Switch at the SDMB **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 26, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946 "2004-07-26T16:31:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chairman\_Pow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Chairman\_Pow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chairman_Pow)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/61 "2004-07-27T01:01:00Z")
> [@NurseCarmen](#): > > Ha! The conspiracy continues! The servers are no loner recognizing my ones! They’re no longer recognizing your "g"s either. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/62 "2004-07-27T01:08:26Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > I don’t mind the slowness so much–it’s the unpredictability that irks. You can be zooming along, wee, hah, post post–and then, thud. > > What happened? Don’t know. Try to access again. Nope. Sometimes this takes a minute to clear up, sometimes hours. It’s frustrating. > > If the board is truly undergoing maintenance or something at times, it would be nice to have a message to that effect on the screen so that I don’t keep pushing _renew_ like a coke-starved monkey. What time of the day/night, using CDT are you having the problem? What type of connection do you have? What speed? If you’re experiencing an hour delay in a post or download, you got a problem, and it’s not the boards fault(IMHO). Any input on times of day that you have your problems? ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/63 "2004-07-27T01:12:51Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > What time of the day/night, using CDT are you having the problem? What type of connection do you have? What speed? > > If you’re experiencing an hour delay in a post or download, you got a problem, and it’s not the boards fault(IMHO). Any input on times of day that you have your problems? Well, yesterday it was perhaps midnight Tokyo time = 10 a.m. Chicago time? Not quite certain. I’m not saying that I can press a page and it will come up an hour later. I’m saying that I will repeatedly get server errors or no-goes for that period. We have a fast ASDL connection with no other proglems. I don’t think it’s our system. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/64 "2004-07-27T01:12:59Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There was an internet worm on the loose today. All web services were slow. The boards tonight, 7-9 PM, EDT, are plenty fast. I have a cable modem connection(Roadrunner). The worm-on-the-loose must be a bad problem. I just got my Norton Antivirus telling me that it deleted a sixth message in my inbox today, due to a virus/worm. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/65 "2004-07-27T01:30:53Z")
> [@Chairman Pow](#): > > They’re no longer recognizing your "g"s either. It was funnier [three hours](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=5105892#post5105892) ago. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/66 "2004-07-27T01:43:03Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Well, yesterday it was perhaps midnight Tokyo time = 10 a.m. Chicago time? Not quite certain. > > I’m not saying that I can press a page and it will come up an hour later. I’m saying that I will repeatedly get server errors or no-goes for that period. > > We have a fast ASDL connection with no other proglems. I don’t think it’s our system. I’m only slightly computer literate. Can anyone respond to **Aeschines** info? For what it’s worth, I’m on here from about 7-11 PM, EDT every night. I’m also on here all day/night Sunday. In the recent past, I’ve NEVER had a “server error” etc. Now, I work 7-6 most days. So, I’m not posting at “peak useage” times. That may be why I don’t have problems, and **Aeschines** does. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/67 "2004-07-27T01:44:58Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > So, uh, go to one of those other places! _sigh_Please see where I said : > [@](#): > > “If you don’t like it, there’s the door” is almost as silly as “This is America! If you don’t like it, go live in Russia!” :rolleyes: Dear lord, don’t you people EVER get tired of saying that? No. I don’t have to go somewhere else, unless the mods and admins decide that what I am doing is against the spirit of the board. Should they do so, then I’ll respect that. You are neither. > [@Excalibre](#): > > “Mindless drone”? The “establishment”? Is The Man trying to keep you down, Maureen? Sheesh . . . It’d take way more of a man than you, buddy boy. > [@Excalibre](#): > > This is one of the biggest, busiest message boards on the net, and for years they provided it at a substantial loss to themselves. Other boards may be willing to accept the financial costs of it (being, for most of them, quite small) but the Reader finally decided that they didn’t want to pay for all of us to have this hangout. I don’t get why you think that’s unreasonable. I don’t. At no point did I even intimate that I did. In fact, I quite clearly stated that I had no problem paying. Perhaps you should actually read my post _all the way through_ instead of just knee jerking at one portion of it and starting your own littl rant. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Figure it out. It’s not about the “establishment” trying to do whatever it is they try to do to you. It’s about _them not wanting to pay a lot of money to support this place._ So they charge us instead. You don’t think that’s reasonable? Don’t pay for it. If you are here, then apparently the boards provide some service to you that all the free places don’t. Yes. I’m here to interact with people that I wouldn’t normally get a chance to. And occasionally step in and say “get a grip, that’s not what I said.” So. Get a grip. That’s not what I said. I said possibly archiving might help. It was a suggestion. Not a commandment. And I never said anyone was trying to do anything to me. Quit trying to “read between the lines.” Trust me. I’m a very up front person. I say _exactly_ what I mean. There is no hidden agenda. > [@Excalibre](#): > > Wait, what? Since when were you a customer before this? Why would customer satisfaction have anything to do with it since _customers pay money for service._ You were not a customer. “Customer satisfaction” is not a moral obligation, it’s a money-making tactic. If they weren’t making any money off of us, the concept’s pretty much moot, don’t you think? What are you, a moron? No; if I were, I wouldn’t be able to distinguish between someone explaining the importance of customer satisfaction in a business environment vs. being a customer of the SDMB when they were not fee for service. There are other businesses. The concept of customer service _did_ exist prior to the SDMB going to fee for service. I simply stated that saying “if you don’t like it go someplace else” is probably not the best way to insure customer satisfaction. DO WE UNDER STAND NOW OR SHOULD I USE SMALLER WORDS? > [@Excalibre](#): > > Look, Maureen, until you can come up with some argument beyond the idea that the Chicago Reader is, you know, oppressing the working class, then you’re just flapping your gums in the wind. They decided to change money because running the place costs money. They didn’t want to pay anymore. What’s wrong with that? Look, Homer, er… **Excalibre** , until you can come up with something beyond “The program is sound! The program is rock solid! Don’t Knock The Program!” and learn to think for yourself, all I’m going to hear is bleating. People are allowed to speak when they feel there are areas they are not impressed with. It’s called freedom of expression. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? Do you mean to tell me that in _all_ the places you frequent as a customer, you have been 100% satisfied all the time? Never a single thing you’d change? Ever? You don’t get out enough. I am sorry that what I said upset you so much, **Tuba Diva**. That was not my intent at all, and I was not trying to be sarcastic (til now) OR insulting. The questions I put forth I truly was asking for clarification on. And, no, I was not aware you had already done a compile and archiving once, or that that archiving had been lost. That’s why I asked. And thank you, **Lynn** , for taking the time to answer me. But…and I would really appreciate if everyone would ponder this…Had I not asked the question, there would have been no clarification. And THAT is what this board, IMO should be about. I learn something in this place. Thank you. Hey, **NCB**! Back at ya. ---
**Author:** ![Leonard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a6a055/32.png) [@Leonard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leonard)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/68 "2004-07-27T01:52:53Z")
I think lots of the problems must be network trafficing problems or something. In my (obvioulsly limited so far) experience here, I have totally different page load times at home and at work. At home (DSL 1500kb/s) load time is maybe a second at the most. However at work (satellite 1000kb/s), where my signal is being bounced around to god knows where, SDMB pages takes 1-3 minutes a page and submitting a post takes about 5 minutes. Every other site I visit at work runs just like it out to, 1000kb/s with a 1-2 second latency. I think there has to be a pretty bad network bottleneck somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/69 "2004-07-27T02:04:25Z")
It is interesting that most charter members wouldn’t pay $15 to post, yet new people are expected to pay that much. Seems like the pricing is a bit off. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/70 "2004-07-27T02:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > It is interesting that most charter members wouldn’t pay $15 to post, yet new people are expected to pay that much. Seems like the pricing is a bit off. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/71 "2004-07-27T02:44:10Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > It is interesting that most charter members wouldn’t pay $15 to post, yet new people are expected to pay that much. Seems like the pricing is a bit off. I’m one of the new people (I didn’t even know about this board a month ago), and it doesn’t seem “off” to me: I often seen places like this switch from free to pay and give a discount to existing members, or to people who join in a certain timeframe. If the charter members (actually, I think _I’m_ considered a ‘charter member’…do you mean the people who were here when the site was still free?) aren’t willing to pay $15, it doesn’t mean anything other than that they don’t think the site is worth $15. Apparently plenty of other people _do_ think the site is worth that much, and, while I’m sure some cool people have been lost in the process, I don’t think it’s a pricing problem. (IMHO, I Know I’m New Here ™, YMMV, etc.) Personally, I think that $15/year is extremely reasonable, and I’m impressed with the fact that people can post for free for 30 days before having to decide if they want to pay. I really, really liked that. I didn’t even wait the full 30 days, because I started craving the ability to search: I tend to look around and post here and there, and then forget which forums/threads I posted in. :smack: And if it takes me 60 or 90 days to realize that I don’t like it here, well, I won’t consider that $15 to have been wasted. It usually takes longer than that before I piss off an entire message board, though. 😉 (j/k!) ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/72 "2004-07-27T03:25:35Z")
> [@SmackFu](#): > > It is interesting that most charter members wouldn’t pay $15 to post, yet new people are expected to pay that much. Seems like the pricing is a bit off. By “most charter members” do you mean “of the ones that have posted to this thread?” I haven’t seen a poll of the 4000 charter members that would indicate that “most” of them “wouldn’t pay $15 to post.” What was the final tally? ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/73 "2004-07-27T05:38:59Z")
That would be a very interesting poll, I’m sure we all agree. I would even say that someone selling a service would do just such a poll before setting the price of said service. Alas. Yet even without such a poll, it’s obvious that the $5 price point for existing members was chosen just so there wouldn’t be a mass exodus or outcry. $5 is nothing, a pittance for the many years of “quality” service from the board. Plus there were so many generous people willing to pay for others, that no one at all had any right to complain. OTOH, exodus isn’t a problem with new members, so you can charge whatever you want for them. Heck, you should overcharge them, because we don’t really want new members anymore, they just make the system slower. And you’ll never know how many people you turned away, because guess what: they’re gone. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/74 "2004-07-27T11:19:07Z")
> [@Aeschines](#): > > Well, yesterday it was perhaps midnight Tokyo time = 10 a.m. Chicago time? Not quite certain. > > I’m not saying that I can press a page and it will come up an hour later. I’m saying that I will repeatedly get server errors or no-goes for that period. > > We have a fast ASDL connection with no other proglems. I don’t think it’s our system. If by 10:am Chicago time yesterday you mean my yesterday here in the US, that was when the internet worm hit. Another board I was on was horrible, this one had decent response for me. I think it had more to do with what was between here and there. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/75 "2004-07-27T11:52:29Z")
> [@NoClueBoy](#): > > **Kobayashi Maru** > > I paid to be here because, for the most part, I like it here. > > However… > > What I find to be most disturbing is what I perceive to be a poor attitude on the part of the CR and certain Admins. We used to be told, “What does yew expect? It’s FREE!” Now we are being told, “Hey, yer lucky to even HAVE a board!” > > We are stuck in our own little no win scenario because the people who could do something (CR and employess) , don’t care to. And the ones who do seem to want to (a partial nod to certain mods and Admins), can’t. > > Yeah, the Admins are stuck in this Kobayashi Maru, too, I guess. If they had the abilty to affect change, I’m pretty sure they would. > > So, how do we get to the Chicago Reader? Shall we start some sort of Enterprise style letter and e-mail campaign, enlightening them as to how loved and possibly valuable the SDMB is? Or would that make them likely to just pull the plug? > > Hi, **Mo**! And a very small side note to those who now think they know someting…: 😃 I think it’s pretty simple, the money goes to bandwidth. Even with the subscriptions, there still isn’t enough dough to cover the costs this board generates. The alternative to a slow board is _no_ board. Even a slow ass SDMB is better then 99% of the boards in the interweb. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/76 "2004-07-27T12:45:42Z")
If by ‘better’ you mean ‘bigger’. There are plenty of discussion forums out there of high quality. Still waiting to hear if the corporation known as the Chicago Reader has to publish a financial statement. If they are a corporation owned by shareholders, they should have to. Be interesting to see where the money’s going. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/77 "2004-07-27T12:50:20Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > There are plenty of discussion forums out there of high quality. I’ve yet to find one. I never understand this argument. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/78 "2004-07-27T13:03:43Z")
> [@catsix](#): > > Be interesting to see where the money’s going. Why? Would it make a difference if you found out it all went to procure booze and hookers for Cecil? Why do you think the Reader should be accountable to you with regard to how they spend their revenue? I certainly don’t care, so long as the lights stay on here at the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/79 "2004-07-27T13:06:05Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > Look, Homer, er… **Excalibre** , until you can come up with something beyond “The program is sound! The program is rock solid! Don’t Knock The Program!” and learn to think for yourself, all I’m going to hear is bleating. Is that the best you can do? I come up with a justification for why we should have to pay (i.e. the place costs money) and the best response you can come up with is that I’m not thinking for myself? I’m just a sheep? Is everyone who disagrees with you a sheep, Maureen? Are they all working for The Man? Hey, I argued my side. Place costs money. If they don’t want to pay that money, there’s no obligation for them to do so. If you can come up with an argument against that, feel free. But if the best you can do is “you’re a sheep!” then, well, you’re just noisily stupid. > [@Maureen](#): > > People are allowed to speak when they feel there are areas they are not impressed with. > It’s called freedom of expression. Perhaps you’ve heard of it? Do you mean to tell me that in _all_ the places you frequent as a customer, you have been 100% satisfied all the time? Never a single thing you’d change? Ever? You don’t get out enough. And that’s what we’re doing. You have every right to be dissatisfied. But if you’re dissatisfied over this, and the only argument you can come up with is “you’re all sheep!” then, well, see above . . . If the demographics of the board have shifted, and everyone left is a sheep, then what _do_ you get out of being here? I’m not afraid of being banned - the thought has never even occured to me. If you’ve got some other psychoanalysis to explain my ovine nature, feel free. But if everyone who disagrees with you is automatically just repeating what the establishment says, then I suppose there’s no room for discussion. I still see plenty of people pissing everyone off. Look at the politicos: Reeder, Brutus, Diogenes, Liberal, and all them are still around filling their opponents with blinding rage. The word “goat-felching” still shows up in about half the OPs in the pit. GD is still debating. Where is this massive influx of sheep hanging out, Maureen? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2004, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946/80 "2004-07-27T13:09:44Z")
The Reader appears to be privately held by one Thomas Renwaldt. I’m sure if you call him, he’d be more than happy to open up his checkbook for your purusal. I’m sure this sort of discussion really endears Dopers to him. After all, I really love it when a group of people I’ve supported - say the non-profit I donate blood to - suddenly wants to know how I’m spending my time that I can’t drop everything and go donate blood. Even if a company is publically held, they don’t need to open their books completely to shareholders - only meet SEC regulations for reporting purposes and be audited by a certified audit firm. If you can find the expenses for bandwidth for the SDMB in the 10,000 level view that is corporate reporting, you are very good. For instance, the company I work for would never disclose how much they spent on R&D for any one specific product - unless perhaps we had a court order to do so - R&D is certainly a line item for us - but a product by product breakdown is considered confidential. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-and-switch-at-the-sdmb/256946.md?page=5)