# Bait bikes and cars: a great idea or entrapment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2011, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502 "2011-05-11T11:05:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/41 "2011-05-11T16:32:15Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > A backpack is not usual and one filled with beer and cigarettes next to a school it would be reasonable for someone to want to remove it so kids do not find it (I’d think). Oops! :smack: Should be: “A backpack is unusual (when left on a street)…” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/42 "2011-05-11T16:34:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Apparently the APD will arrest you just for picking up the backpack and taking it without waiting to see what you do with it (maybe you were going to go find a police officer to turn it in…the police cannot know without waiting to see). > > ETA: IANAL but can they show _mens rea_ without waiting to see what the person does with the backpack? A car or bike left on the street unlocked is not unusual…that is where you park those things. A backpack is not usual and one filled with beer and cigarettes next to a school it would be reasonable for someone to want to remove it so kids do not find it (I’d think). No, they can’t. You’re exactly right – the elements of larceny include an attempt to permanantly deprive the owner of posession. As long as the people can claim they were going to turn the backpack in, it’s hard to imagine a case sticking. In fact, a bit of further research reveals the DA dropped almost all cases after reviewing the evidence. The one case that will apparently procede to verdict is where the arrestee immediately volunteered that he knew he was tealing the backpack and that he knew it was wrong. However, note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with entrapment. ---
**Author:** ![Soliloquy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Soliloquy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soliloquy)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/43 "2011-05-11T16:46:23Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Out of curiosity, does having the GPS lead you to someone’s house give you probably cause to get a warrant to search the house? In CA, yes, having GPS or another tracking method lead LEOs to a residence or vehicle gives probable cause to search. It actually gives probable cause for an immediate, warrantless search because these types of operations are conducted in real time and they’re considered “hot pursuit”; no warrant necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/44 "2011-05-11T16:48:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > However, note that this has nothing whatsoever to do with entrapment. Where is the line drawn? Hypothetically say the police drop a $100 bill on the sidewalk. I doubt there is a person in the Untied States (or world), including police and lawyers, who wouldn’t stop to pick that up if they saw it while walking by. Seems to me, in that case, the police are enticing people to do something they ordinarily wouldn’t do (i.e. take money that does not belong to them). For entrapment to apply do the police have to actually persuade you to commit the crime? ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/45 "2011-05-11T17:23:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > It’s an interesting story. He didn’t move the car or try to move it. The car had keys in the ignition, “stripper clothes” clearly visible, and rope inside, and it was there for multiple days. The guy and his girlfriend started freaking themselves out about what was going on, imagining some young woman who had been kidnapped from it, or murdered and locked in the trunk, or something. > > So the guy put on black gloves (saying in his defense that if there had been a crime committed he didn’t want to put his fingerprints all over the car), opened it up, looked through the glove box and console for insurance papers or something else that could identify the car’s owner so they could try to track the owner down. When he didn’t find anything, he took the keys from the ignition and tried to get into the trunk to see if he could find anything. When the keys wouldn’t open the trunk, he tried to open it with a screwdriver. When that didn’t work, he went back into the cabin of the car–and that’s when the cops arrested him. > > His actions were probably very foolish, but he was trying to be a good samaritan throughout. Give the story a listen! So you call the cops, tell them what you saw and drop it. Give them a call back the next day if no one’s been out to check on it. It’s not yours to investigate. And breaking into the trunk? Guess what, if there’s a dead stripper in there, she’ll still be dead in a few days, you prying the trunk open isn’t going to bring her back to life. Now, if you heard thrashing or muffled screams coming from the trunk, that would be different. It sounds to me (based on what you said), that these were two busy bodies that were in over their heads. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Ill-advised, yes. Worth prosecuting? I’m not so sure. > > I’ve broken into people’s cars before to turn off headlights that they left on. I’d be happy for someone to do that for me. If overzealous police discourage that sort of neighborliness, that’s not a good thing. If you ever see my car with it’s headlights on, just let the battery die…please don’t break into it. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/46 "2011-05-11T17:26:06Z")
A dead battery is much easier to replace than a broken window or a lock damaged from being jimmied. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/47 "2011-05-11T17:28:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Did you read the part where not only do the ACLU have no case, they have no problem with the OP, and the case they did have a problem with is materially different? What does this have to do with what I wrote? I didn’t even mention the ACLU. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/48 "2011-05-11T17:39:41Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Where is the line drawn? > > Hypothetically say the police drop a $100 bill on the sidewalk. I doubt there is a person in the Untied States (or world), including police and lawyers, who wouldn’t stop to pick that up if they saw it while walking by. > > Seems to me, in that case, the police are enticing people to do something they ordinarily wouldn’t do (i.e. take money that does not belong to them). > > For entrapment to apply do the police have to actually persuade you to commit the crime? Yes, the police actually have to persuade you, in such a way as to overcome your will and convince you to commit a crime you were not otherwise predisposed to commit. The Supreme Court first recognized the entrapment defense in _Sorrells v. US_, 287 U. S. 435 (1932). In overturning a liquor conviction, the Court said: > [@](#): > > It is clear that the evidence was sufficient to warrant a finding that the act for which defendant was prosecuted was instigated by the prohibition agent, that it was the creature of his purpose, that defendant had no previous disposition to commit it but was an industrious, law-abiding citizen, and that the agent lured defendant, otherwise innocent, to its commission by repeated and persistent solicitation… Although there was a concurring opinion that would focus on instigation, the majority view, which has survived to the present, is an inquiry into the predisposition of the accused. > [@US v. Russell](#): > > Those cases establish that entrapment is a relatively limited defense. It is rooted, not in any authority of the Judicial Branch to dismiss prosecutions for what it feels to have been “overzealous law enforcement,” but instead in the notion that Congress could not have intended criminal punishment for a defendant who has committed all the elements of a proscribed offense, but was induced to commit them by the Government. > > Sorrells and Sherman both recognize "that the fact that officers or employees of the Government merely afford opportunities or facilities for the commission of the offense does not defeat the prosecution… ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/49 "2011-05-11T18:07:55Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > It sounds to me (based on what you said), that these were two busy bodies that were in over their heads. Yes, you are possibly right here. We usually don’t charge people who are busybodies with grand theft auto though. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/50 "2011-05-11T18:14:03Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Yes, you are possibly right here. We usually don’t charge people who are busybodies with grand theft auto though. Until they break into a car and pry the trunk open. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/51 "2011-05-11T18:20:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Yes, you are possibly right here. We usually don’t charge people who are busybodies with grand theft auto though. Well, what are you going to charge them with? Aggravated busybodying? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/52 "2011-05-11T18:56:23Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > If you ever see my car with it’s headlights on, just let the battery die…please don’t break into it. :smack: Poor phrasing on my part. Of course I’ve never broken anything. Rather, I’ve reached through an open window, or even opened an unlocked door, to turn off the lights. I haven’t done it in over a decade, though, out of fear that someone will misinterpret my actions. > [@magellan](#): > > What does this have to do with what I wrote? I didn’t even mention the ACLU. Again, :smack: > [@magiver](#): > > The ACLU can pound salt, they have no case. Two conservatives with the name **mag** post in a thread. The first one makes a foolish statement. Someone asks him, “Did you read the thread?” Then the other one responds to that question with “I did read the thread, and…” And I got the two conservative **mags** mixed up. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/53 "2011-05-11T19:03:39Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Again, :smack: > > Two conservatives with the name **mag** post in a thread. The first one makes a foolish statement. Someone asks him, “Did you read the thread?” Then the other one responds to that question with “I did read the thread, and…” And I got the two conservative **mags** mixed up. Mea culpa. Oh, so we all look the same, huh? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/54 "2011-05-11T19:04:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh, so we all look the same, huh? 😉 When you start answering questions posed to the other mag you do 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/55 "2011-05-11T19:18:42Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Well, what are you going to charge them with? Aggravated busybodying? I’m not even sure I’d call them busybodies. The car was in front of their home right? It wasn’t like they were trolling the city for an abandoned car. It’s all silliness. Not that one should be allowed to break into cars parked in front of their home, but seriously, do people actually _steal cars from right in front of their home_? Or call the police about a car before they try to steal it? Seems odd to me, but then again, I don’t know much about these things. Can’t the police use a teeny-tiny bit of common sense or logic? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/56 "2011-05-11T19:24:06Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > When you start answering questions posed to the other mag you do 🙂 Guess that was another ill-founded assumption on your part then. I swear, _you people…_ ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/57 "2011-05-11T19:24:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Guess that was another ill-founded assumption on your part then. I swear, _you people…_ Thus mea culpa, **magiver**. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/58 "2011-05-11T19:28:17Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Thus mea culpa, **magiver**. Well done. For one of _them_. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/59 "2011-05-11T19:35:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Although there was a concurring opinion that would focus on instigation, the majority view, which has survived to the present, is an inquiry into the predisposition of the accused. > [@Joey\_P](#): > > Until they break into a car and pry the trunk open. This case (the couple that open the trunk of a car and are charged with grand theft auto) seems to be a perfect example of entrapment then. They obviously had no predisposition to steal the car. They had no predisposition to even open the car. The entirety of their actions were caused by the actions of the police. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502/60 "2011-05-11T20:13:13Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > This case (the couple that open the trunk of a car and are charged with grand theft auto) seems to be a perfect example of entrapment then. They obviously had no predisposition to steal the car. They had no predisposition to even open the car. The entirety of their actions were caused by the actions of the police. No. You’re confusing two issues. Remember: “…merely afford[ing] opportunities or facilities for the commission of the offense does not defeat the prosecution…” The police simply put the opportunity in front of them. They didn’t urge them or even communicate with them in any way that pushed them into trying to open the trunk. So there’s no entrapment. BUT. At the same time, if you believe their story, there’s no crime here either (at least not the crime of attempted grand theft). They had no intention of stealing anything. In order to be guilty of attempted grand theft, they would have had to intend to commit grand theft, take a substantial step in furtherence of that intent, but fail to complete the crime. Because intent can’t be definitively proved until we invent the Mind Reading Machine, we must infer intent by actions: people are assumed to intend the ordinary outcome of their actions. The prosecution theory of the case is that they planned to steal the car, and broke into the back to further their plan. Their theory is that they had no felonious intent at all, and were makign sure no one was in need of help. It’s for the jury to hear their testimony, weigh their credibility, and decide if they believe the story the accused tell. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/bait-bikes-and-cars-a-great-idea-or-entrapment/581502.md?page=4)